3.35 How PhD Students Can Network Smarter & Avoid Career Panic with Dr David Mendes from Beyond the Thesis

Struggling to figure out your career path after your PhD? In this episode, David Mendes—host of the Beyond the Thesis podcast—shares expert tips on using networking to map out your job market early. Learn how to have strategic career conversations, explore industry roles, and avoid last-minute decision panic. This conversation offers practical steps PhD students can take to better understand their options and plan with confidence.

Links:

Beyond the Thesis with Papa PhD (David’s podcast)

Connect with David on LinkedIn

David’s Skool.com link

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I'm Dr Vikki Wright, ex-Professor and certified life coach and I help everyone from PhD students to full Professors to get a bit less overwhelmed and thrive in academia. Please make sure you subscribe, and I would love it if you could find time to rate, review and tell your friends! You can send them this universal link that will work whatever the podcast app they use. http://pod.link/1650551306?i=1000695434464

I also host a free online community for academics at every level. You can sign up on my website, The PhD Life Coach. com - you'll receive regular emails with helpful tips and access to free online group coaching every single month! Come join and get the support you need.

Transcript

Vikki: Hello and welcome to the PhD Life Coach podcast and I have a guest with me again this week.

Vikki: I am really excited to welcome David Mendes, who is better known to many of you, probably as Papa PhD and the host of Beyond Your Thesis podcast. So welcome, David, it is so fun to have you here. 

David: Well, thanks for having me. It's really a pleasure to be talking with you today, across the pond. 

Vikki: Yes, yes, absolutely. Always having to get my brain around time zones, which is not my strength, but we figured it out. 

David: We figured it out. 

Vikki: So today we're gonna be thinking about how to make career decisions, and particularly thinking about how networking can be a really useful way to make decisions about what you wanna do, not just something to be done at the last minute, but before we get going about that, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit more about you, how you got into what you're doing and what else you do other than your podcast.

David: Yeah. I've been doing Beyond The Thesis, which at the beginning was just called Papa PhD, started in 2019. Just before Covid. Just before the pandemic. So this project of sharing people's career journeys after the PhD came up nine years after my defense.

David: I defended in 2010, I did a PhD in cell biology and what happened in 2010 was that I wasn't ready, I wasn't ready to, you know, project myself professionally into anything that wasn't being in the lab and continuing to do cell biology. I, I wasn't ready, I hadn't had any particular training on it.

David: I didn't know people, let's say in industry or in any other domains that weren't academia. And, and so this means that, you know, for that six months to a year after defending, uh, I was, you know, floundering, I was trying to leverage my like personal and family network, which was actually how I got my first like contracts, just after my PhD and eventually trying to to understand where people in the institute that I was were going, that was not academia. And then reaching out to them and doing that kind of organic networking. But it was all done in a sense of urgency. I wouldn't say panic, but some people may panic because, you know, they might be like me far away from their family, even their continent of origin.

David: And they found out or they understood that they don't want to stay in academia and to continue that path, but they need to keep paying the bills. And so it's legitimate to be kind of panicking in a certain way. In any case, I ended up finding my path into a domain, which is medical writing. So through finding out where people who were in my institute were going, I ended up being able to find my first position there. But, what happened in the years after between 2010 and 2019 was that, uh, I started getting invitations to career panels. And so the thing that started happening was all the obstacles and all the difficulties that I thought, you know, in my little personal bubble belonged to me and, and were my responsibility or my fault, I was seeing that each year I was going to these career panels and young graduate students who were almost finishing, were sharing the same feelings that I had had at the end of my PhD. And that was kind of an aha moment for me that, oh, this was not just me. It's, there's kind of this systemic phenomenon where people are getting to the end of their graduate studies journey and are feeling lost, they lose their footing and they start having this doubt of, did I do the right thing or was it a strategic error on my part and now I kind of made myself an overqualified and maladapted person in the job market. 

David: So jump to 2019. What happened that here was that for different reasons, I started on my own to have my own, like medical writing and medical translation clients. So that, plus the fact that I, and it's, it's these serendipities, you know, on Facebook there was this, uh, article saying why you should start your podcast in 2019. And I had some gear, and that kind of alignment of, I have some time, I have this sense of, of mission of wanting to reduce the number of young, brilliant people who feel bad about their choice maybe of, of following an academic path. I think it's, it's unfair that that's how they feel after all these years of dedication to this journey. I'd love to, to find a way to inspire them, to co comfort them in their choices and also to comfort them that there's cool stuff out there for them after their degree. That was just kind of the right alignment of planets to get me started and to think, oh, you know, I know like a handful of people who were in my institute when I was doing my PhD, and they're not in academia and they're having fun, being entrepreneurs, being science communicators, being in industry. And I'll reach out to them and see if they're interested in sharing their stories. And they were.

David: And so that, that was how the whole concept of Papa PhD was born and then, well now we are almost reaching six years. Right. So it's, it's kind, there's a snowball effect. Of course. First I started with the people I knew and now I'm, you know, I'm interviewing people that are much farther away from kind of my close circle of people I know.

Vikki: So why do you think people find it so hard to figure out where else they could go? 

David: Well, there's different aspects to it. One aspect is that the PhD is a very demanding endeavor that, the tendency is that it'll take most of your time, most of your bandwidth, you know, most of your brain for all those years.

David: So if there isn't some, um, you know, either mandatory curriculum, let's say, that pushes you during your PhD journey to do some courses on networking or to have, uh, internships in government or in industry, well, the PhD will absorb all of your energy, all of your time. And you'll stay in this tunnel vision because naturally, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of an, an ecology thing, right? If, if there's no competition for that space in your brain and in your life, the PhD is gonna take all of that space. That's the first reason I'd say. Does that resonate with you? 

Vikki: Yeah, definitely. And I love that the visual of thinking of it as an ecology where things sort of expand to fill it, is such a good way of thinking about that.

Vikki: I wonder whether there's also things about the sort of expectations and the kind of emotions around deciding that this route that lots of people who did, who started a PhD thought might be their route isn't now. I wonder if you could sort of speak to that a little.

David: Yeah, so from all the people that I've interviewed, one of the main aspects that comes out is that it's only as you get into a PhD, into, you know, first year, second year, et cetera, and that you spend all those hours with your supervisor, that you actually see what being the head of a lab is.

David: And often you come into the experience, you know, you, you are, you're brought into a PhD and what you bring with you is kind of this um, romanticized, let's say image of the scientist that is probably based on some fifties, sixties era or even seventies reality. But, but which today does not exist anymore, of you have, a scientific question you are really passionate about, you'll be given a space in university to kind of dig into that and bring young people with you to also dig into that. But then no one talks to you about all the admin, all the boards you need to be on, all the grant writing. And so all of that kind of is revealed to you once you're in it.

David: And I think. I'd say the, the, that's a big chunk, maybe it's the largest proportion would be that. 

Vikki: Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's without, I mean, you've already alluded to this, in your own story, but that's even without the kind of geography impact, you know, people often don't realize quite what level of sort of geographical relocation is often, I mean, I'm speaking to someone who stayed at the same place, so I'm not one to speak on that.

Vikki: But for lots of people at the moment, regular relocations are gonna be part of that journey and things. I think often it's that side as well that people don't even necessarily know is what's coming. 

David: That's it. The other aspect is the competition. I know that in life sciences where I was, you know, the competition for funds, for grants, et cetera, even like between labs, it's something you also don't know about. And not everyone appreciates living with that pressure. And a reality today, at best, one in five of the people in a PhD cohort will be able to get a tenure track position. So this means that the other four actually we're going to have to scramble to find other ways to stay adjacent or in academia. And I think that translates into pressure on the graduate students and they feel it during graduate school, but then, uh, even if they, they start on the first postdoc, second postdoc, there's people who end up realizing then after one, two postdocs that, okay, I've pushed this far and there's a wall that I can't break through, and then people need to reorient after.

David: So, with such dedication and so much, you know, blood, sweat, and tears, trying their best to break through to that thing that in the end ends up being, you know, out of reach. 

David: And I think that if somehow, there was some, I'd like to say mandatory, but at, at least easily accessible career training during the journey starting in graduate school, then the day you need to pivot, you wouldn't need to feel that bad about it because somehow you say, okay, this didn't pan out, but hey, I have in my network, I know people in industry, I can easily negotiate myself my, my path, my journey towards something else. And, and I feel that a, a lot of people end up having these negative feelings towards academia, and feelings of regret towards the choices they've made on that side. And I think it's unfair. I think choosing to work towards augmenting the community's knowledge is something the society needs and it shouldn't be something that people feel regret about. 

David: That's my mission. It's to kind of normalize the fact that the post PhD journey is not a one track thing. And also to tell people that not following the historic canonical path is not failure.

David: That's my main, like my main mission with Papa PhD and with beyond the thesis. 

Vikki: So, yeah, so, so true. And you mentioned that we're gonna touch on that network thing in a second, but the other thing I wanted to just add was when you were talking about people starting to regret their choices, starting to resent academia and stuff, it really struck me what a difficult mindset that is to then be looking for jobs as well.

Vikki: 'cause you know, it feels rubbish to be questioning your choices and thinking, should I have done something different five years ago and to be getting angry at academia that things aren't the way they should be and that all feels unpleasant. 

David: Mm-hmm. 

Vikki: But I think there's a big element to which that also then makes it really hard to look for other options in a way that's exciting and inspired and all that stuff. Yeah. If you are starting from this, this place where you know you've made a mistake somehow, and that's where I think the stuff that you are doing is so, so, so important to help people to kind of almost put to one side that resentment and regret and be like, no, no. Act. There's, there's a ton out there. There's so many things. 

David: Yeah.

Vikki: And when you're thinking like that, you're so much more likely to find them and engage with them. 

David: Yeah. Thank you and I totally agree. One third aspect that I'd want to add is and I kind of identify with this a little bit, is also so to, to do with why it's difficult at the end. I myself know that one of the reasons I decided to keep on going with my academic studies was, one, my curiosity about science, but also I, at different stages where, you know, oh, do I go to masters or do I go to the PhD or do I go get a job?

David: I was seeing what people my age and, and, and my colleagues who were going straight to the job market was were doing and I didn't identify with that. And somehow, if that's one of the reasons or one of the motives that brought you to keep on studying was, I don't see myself, I don't, uh, identify myself with people doing this or that job going straight to industry, going straight to sales or whatever.

David: I'm gonna keep studying and try to become an academic. The other difficulty is then once you see that actually being an academic is not what I thought, and now I actually need to look back at what I kind of rejected in a certain way at the beginning. And so that's also emotionally it's difficult because I have to actually go back on my word and actually look at these places in industry that I had rejected at a certain point.

David: But you need to think that you're not gonna go into it with the same background. Now bring all those years of like deep thinking, uh, you know, of, of managing and, and taking this very long project to its conclusion, uh, of communicating science, of digesting science, of treating data.

David: One of the messages that I wanna bring and, why it's important to talk with people out there that have journeys that are inspiring to you is because they can show you kind of the path of how now with this background that you have, you can go back into the space which you didn't identify too much with five years ago, but now there's another way you can bring value to that space.

David: And that's the ray of hope is and the inspiration is, and that's what I try to bring with the, the, the beyond the thesis conversations. 

Vikki: Yeah. And we've mentioned networking a couple of times, and it's always a word that people kind of react to in various emotional ways. In fact, as you know, we've had Dr. Jen Polk before talking about networking. So in this context, what are you meaning by networking? 

David: What I want people to start considering is not putting on a suit and going to an event and sharing, you know, a contact card and saying, hi, I'm da da da, I'm looking for a job. That's not it. What I want to share is that because as scientists, as PhDs, we have this tendency of I'm gonna go it alone. I can do the research all on my own. I'm going to go through the data and find, you know, what is it I want to do.

David: I want to posit that this is a natural but a wrong reflex to have. Because the jobs in the job market is a very complex thing and just by using your normal, you know, research and data crunching abilities and capabilities that you developed through all these years, you are going to be missing different things.

David: And one of the things you're gonna be missing is, you know, does this job or does this employer that on paper is, you know, checking all the marks there. This makes sense, but does it really align with my values? Is it really somewhere where I will flourish? Is it somewhere where, where I'll have fulfillment and pleasure in what I do?

David: And you can't get that just with the data that's out there. When you go into a networking event or into a networking interaction with someone in an informational interview, please don't go into it thinking, is this person going to get me a job? I want you to take it as an exploratory exercise, but also a social exercise. Of course, you know, you need to find people who are inspiring to you and who genuinely you're curious about their journey. And this conversation with this person will help you kind of, uh, imagine if you have, you know, a color by numbers map of the job market, that's all blank.

David: This person's gonna help you put some color in different places and help you build an actual map of, oh, okay. So the culture in this domain is like this, I like it, or very important, I don't like it. And, and, 'cause these are two very important outcomes of networking in this context is understanding where I would love to work and why, or where I would hate to work and why. And sometimes you go in thinking, oh, this is, you know, perfect for me. And then you talk with someone who works at this or that company, or in this or that space, and you understand, huh, actually this wasn't what it looked like.

David: And actually, now that I've had this conversation, I know that I don't need to put effort there because somehow it doesn't align. So it's more, it's really, you know, creating, yes, creating social capital, knowing people in the space. But it's really, it's very much a kind of a job market cartography exercise.

David: It's because for all the solo research you do, nothing is gonna give you as much rich information about a, a position or about an employer than talking with someone who works or worked there because of how much in a 20 minute conversation can be exchanged between two people.

David: Plus, if you really choose people who you admire for some reason or who intrigue you for some reason, you will also be creating relationships that you can then nurture forever and, and that eventually will be become part of your, what I call your village and who eventually will think of you if they see a job posting come by and say, oh, you know what, David actually could be a great person for this. I'll, I'll reach out to him. If you go to someone with that, I need a job from you, uh, uh, kind of feeling and, and tone. It feels transactional, it feels, you know, it doesn't align with the kind of concept that I'm trying to, to share.

Vikki: Yes, absolutely. You made me think of a conversation I had over the weekend, which is a slightly flippant example of the importance of a village. But a very good friend of mine who did her PhD about the same time as mine, um, has a friend who also did a PhD and is now very high up in the world of sports drinks and that sort of thing. 

David: Okay. 

Vikki: And her son is a competitive, like under 18 international sports person here in the uk and was having an argument with his mom about whether he should be taking creatine and doing protein shakes and all of this stuff 'cause he was adamant, he definitely should be, he 60 and she was not convinced. So she's just like. I'll find out. And so she contacted her friend who's like super high up in R&D in this world was like, should it be taking it? No, I win this argument. Not until you're older. 

David: There you go. 

Vikki: So even just silly things like that, she's like, that's why you need to know people who do interesting things, 'cause sometimes it'll help you win an argument with your teenager. 

David: That's it. And, and yeah. No, I, it's a great example. Even when you are during graduate school, if you're able to, this means that by the time you get your degree, you have this kind of safety net of people who are in different spaces, who have different stories to share, who can be sounding boards for you, for your decisions.

David: There's this concept of a board of directors, right? If you are able to build a board directors for yourself of people whom you don't expect anything of, in terms of like getting a job or anything, but with whom you've developed an interest for them, but there's a relationship that's been created that's authentic , that's non-transactional. It's, it's going to allow you in moments of difficulty, which of course there are, there are, 'cause by definition, PhD, there will be difficult difficulties there. You'll have other voices, you know, that. Accept your own in your head, which often is gonna be potentially negative.

David: You'll be able to have some other people chiming in and, and kind of pushing you forward, but also helping you have a wider horizon of thinking, well, if this doesn't pan out, I know that there's other things that can, and when it gets panicky is when you really have that single objective and that starts getting difficult and then you think, oh my God, I'm failing.

David: And that's what I don't want. I don't want people going through that after all that effort, after all that dedication. 

Vikki: Yeah. And a metaphor you used earlier just really opened something up for me that this idea of thinking of it as a map where you are trying to fill in information on different aspects of this kind of possible career map because people like me, you know, my background, none of my parents went to university. I say none. I have stepparents and things. None of my parents went to university. They're all sort of either go into a business and work your way up or start a business kind of people. And so I had that world and then I went to university and I found my academic world.

Vikki: But it's only when I was thinking of it in terms of that map, like you were talking about, that I realized that in my career, you know, I made my understanding of what it was like to work in academia, super vivid. I was surrounded by people that were doing that. And I knew lots of people from my family who were doing like job, you know, and some quite good professional jobs and that don't get me wrong.

David: Yeah. 

Vikki: But jobs and I can't, other than people I did my PhD with, I can't remember really knowing people who had a PhD. Weren't in academia. Mm-hmm. We have one neighbor who worked in academia and other than that, I can't think of anyone that was in that thing. And so just thinking about it now, I had huge blank patches where it's like, this is stuff you do if you don't have a PhD.

Vikki: Yeah. And this is the thing you do if you, when you do have a PhD. And I love this idea of just trying to sort of fill in some of those gaps because otherwise the vividness that you have around academia, because you are in it every day for either good or bad. I think this is brilliant for people who love academia and think they want to stay in academia.

Vikki: I half wonder, had I, during my PhD in postdoc had more exposure to more of this, whether I would've been quite as convinced to stay in academia because whilst I thought it was an amazing idea, who knows what other amazing stuff I would've found. 

David: I find it super interesting that, that you say that, which is this also works for people who want to stay in academia. And that's something that, that I also try to drone on, which is, even if your current objective is to stay in academia, if you go to a conference and someone inspires you, even if they're not in your domain, take the opportunity to talk with them and ask them how are you able to, let's say, develop such an interdisciplinary career and how do you make this or that work at your university or in your institute? What, you know, what did mentors tell you that really helped you? And because there's no better approximation to your future, be it in 2, 3, 5 years than someone who's there now. So talk to these people. 

Vikki: Yeah, I love that one. The thing I used to be, obviously while I was an academic, I was a personal tutor and so we'd be talking to students about what are your career plan, you know, whether it was undergrad or PhD students.

Vikki: And so often they'd still be like, yeah, yeah, I should talk to some people. Some people, once I figured out what I wanna do, I'll talk to some people. Um, I would constantly be like, how about we talk to some people to help you figure out what you wanna do? And that No, no, no. I just need to, I just need to decide. And once I've decided, I'll speak to people working in that industry. So how do you respond to, I just got increasingly exasperated with them, which didn't work. How do you respond to somebody who says, yeah, yeah, that's great. Once I've decided I want to be a medical writer, I'll talk to David. 

David: Mm-hmm. I totally can see how that was a very frequent, answer from people. First finding out this one thing that you wanna do is going to be a very difficult endeavor for different reasons. The first reason is you are here now at, let's say, year two of your PhD. And of course, in Europe, PhD is usually the last three years. And, but here in North America it could be four or five, six. So you can say that and then go home. And in, when you leave, you know, when you finish your PhD, the job market, the landscape will have changed a bunch. So if this is your mindset, you may be in, you know, in this like pedaling to find something that is unfindable because the terrain is changing. And you know, at the beginning of your PhD, let's say, being a data scientist is something that looks really great, but then five years later, it's not anymore. And so the, the, my answer to to this would be, you are not going to find this kind of eldorado.

David: You're not, you're not going to find this just out of your effort right now. And the second thing is, in this search of yours where you think you're gonna find this one gold nugget, you're gonna often be digging, and then you'll find a bunch of coal, and then you'll find just a, you know, basalt.

David: And so you can also lose a bunch of time not finding the right thing or finding, you know, things that are not a match for you. So the best, my best advice to you because, again, one-on-one communication with another human is a shortcut to getting much denser information and much, much more real information, is start talking today. And be curious. So don't, don't have this like one track mind of, I wanna find the thing sample. And this will give you two great sets of information. I have the bucket of likes and I have the bucket of dislikes. And this is great because eventually when then you need to really look for a position, you have this bucket of things that you can already put to the side and not spend any energy on.

David: That would be my advice. I, and again, I, you know, when they're young like that and they have this way of thinking, maybe this wouldn't make them change their way of thinking. But I, I think that would be the way I would approach it 

Vikki: definitely. So. Let's get specific. People listening who are sort of thinking, either they're not sure they want an academic career, or they're not sure they'll be able to have an academic career 'cause of the competitiveness where would you suggest they start? How do they find these people? What do they ask them? 

David: Okay. First give them a sense that they're right, you know, and say, start where you think you want to go. So let's say that you're thinking, I don't know, in my domain it would be I want to be a medical science liaison. So what you need to do now is to go on LinkedIn, and that's the platform I'd say is the one to go. Even if you're an academic now, everyone's there now and everyone who's interested in, in actually discussing careers and even hiring, et cetera.

David: But you go on LinkedIn, maybe go geographically around you. So there's filters you can use there. So find people in this geographical area who are medical science liaisons. If possible, they even are alumni from the place that you are, which gives you a kind of a bridge to say, Hey, I'm now studying the same program that you are.

David: And I, I saw you're a medical science liaison. I've, it feels to me that it's something that I like to do in the future. Could we meet and talk for 20 minutes? And that's the first step and then, what I was saying is you're trying to build a map.

David: So go in with questions, go in with questions that you've prepared, go in with curiosity, and then let the person tell their story based on the questions that, that you, that you prepared. They'll probably have questions for you, so be ready to, to answer that too. But then ask the type of questions that will allow you to have this kind of pinball effect, which is, so who inspired you when you were at the end of the career?

David: Yeah. Who was a mentor? Have one or two questions that, and you can even ask who would you recommend I talk next? Because I really want to understand, what's in the cards for me in the future. So always try to make it organically a snowball effect that start small, but that then you can, there's always a follow up step for you.

David: And this will do two things. It'll help you kind of grow this network, but also it can, it'll kind of put it on your agenda, what the next step is. Yeah because. Like we were saying, the PhD, the tendencies, it'll take all of your time, it'll take your whole agenda. So if there's no pressure there, like positive pressure to create space for something else, it won't be there.

David: So come in genuinely curious about understanding, you know, why the person gravitated towards that position. If you've thought of your values, let's say you value hybrid work to ask questions about that, et cetera, and then let's it, the outcome could be, oh, this actually confirms what I thought about being a medical science liaison, or, okay, I had some wrong ideas about what it is. And actually, after talking with this person, which was gracious enough to spend this time with me, I now know that I don't need to put more energy on this and so now I need to turn my radar somewhere else and restart the exercise. 

Vikki: Yeah. And that, that is a win too, right? Like you said, that is a win too, that actually, you know, having an interview where you walk away going, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Is a massive win. 'cause it stops you wasting time over there too, right?

David: Precisely. 

Vikki: One of the things that struck me while you were talking was, it might be interesting to ask people, were there other careers that you considered before you ended up in this one?

David: That would be a good question to 

Vikki: see if they've got ideas like that. Especially, you know, if it's something a little bit adjacent to what they're doing, because I think sometimes we have quite a limited, you know, we have those kids' books where it's like, what do you wanna be? I'm gonna be a teacher or a doctor or a football fireman, and those are our options kind of thing.

Vikki: And I think sometimes we just don't even know what jobs are out there. And I wonder whether sometimes by going for one that we know exists and asking them what they discounted, you might actually find some things that you didn't even know were there. 

David: Totally true. And often, and again, I'm, and I'm thinking of like farmers and you know, companies that are related to what I did during my PhD.

David: Often, uh, these people will have colleagues who are PhDs and even within their organization and who are doing different things, you know. Asking the person, oh, by the way, do you have colleagues who are also like PhDs and who are doing different things? 

Vikki: It's so interesting 'cause I think sort of getting to not only ask about the job itself, but asking about what they love and hate about it and what's important to them. So I come from a sports science background and all of our students, undergrad anyway, think they're gonna work in elite sport.

Vikki: That's their kind of, that's their kind of goal. A PhD level, it's much less so. But some of them do go on into that environment. And I remember talking with some of them that had gone off to do that sort of thing, working with Olympic athletes and stuff. 

David: Okay. 

Vikki: And asking them about their priorities and how they enjoyed it and stuff. And just listening to it like. This is fascinating and I don't care. So it's like, for you, this is amazing. I will watch the sports, I will cheer you on. I will be ecstatic if this all is good for you. But the idea of going to work every day where my goal is to make sure we shave one second off their performance because, you know, silver is the first loser and all of that stuff, I just don't get it.

Vikki: I I, it, it doesn't, it rocks their world. And they would talk about all this stuff, so passionately and I was just like, yeah, I dunno. I'd quite like silver. Silver was quite nice. That's good too. Yeah. I just wouldn't be that fussed. And so I think just getting that idea of what is it that you love about this job and then being able to be like, oh no, that's not important to me.

Vikki: Because sometimes people are like, you know, oh, I really get to travel all the time. I'm only at home a week a month. It's incredible. I get to see all these different places. And then for other people it's like, no, that sounds great for you, not me, for you. Exactly. Um, I, yeah, I think that's so interesting.

David: Definitely. Definitely. But, I think in this exercise of, of building, this village and having these conversations, what's important I think, is to understand that this diversity exists and that there's space for it, in the job market. Because one of the things that I remember I felt is this fear of, oh, oh, okay. Gosh, I had one chance and I, I kind of blew it in a certain way. And now that, you know, I, I have this fear that I am this weird shaped puzzle piece that's not gonna fit anywhere. But there's so much out there, uh, that, that, like you said, if you have this approach of the kids' books of you're a fireman, you're an astronaut. Mm-hmm. You're this or that. It's really not like that. But the only way to understand and to know that actually there's this place that maybe I'm not an exact fit, but I'm pretty good fit, is by talking with people and by understanding that often things that it feels like it's very square.

David: And especially if you look at job postings, it looks like you need to be like this. Like, and then you talk with the hiring manager and actually they really want to know other things about you. And again, I don't think there's a better way than talking with someone who has been there or who's there now, and that can really kind of, um, recalibrate your expectation of what the experience is.

Vikki: And in terms of when to do this. Mm-hmm. It sounds like you are talking about pretty much throughout your PhD experience. 

David: I ideally, yeah. And you may, you may even, you know, be better placed to actually, you know, tell me about your experience. But I feel that first year students are very much in this, uh, how do you say?

David: I just have like puppy love, uh, coming as an expression, but you know, in this beginning of a relationship, you know, like wide-eyed, oh, I just got into my program. I'm a PhD student now. So I think it's probably very challenging or more challenging to expect that first year students are going to, uh, to be putting some time looking at more than their academic, this thing that they just got onto and then you can, you can weigh in on that given that your experience, experience with students. But I think, you know, once that kind of honeymoon phase of I got into my PhD program and you announce it on your socials. I'd say at six months, uh, if you can start seeing, okay, where do graduates of my program. Where are they located now on the job market?

David: And maybe you are really focused on academia and you can do that and see where are they in academia and start talking with them. I think that's important, but I think it's also as important to see, and those who are not in academia, where are they, what are they doing? And to do it just out of, yes, curiosity, but also it's kind of as an a kind of self preservation instinct of, I'm now in this honeymoon period, but someone's telling me that in three years you're gonna be ejected out of this reality, and you have this degree and then you're gonna have to figure things out.

David: So yeah, I'm in the middle of my first year or beginning of my second year. Part of what I'm doing now is preparing myself to be, to be a professional. So I want to be ready for any outcome. So I'm going to kind of create this cushion of knowledge, but also ideally this network of people. And I'll start and, say, let's say once a month, I try to reach out to someone. 

Vikki: Yeah. 

David: That just, that already would be a great thing.

Vikki: Yeah, definitely. And I, I, I definitely take your point that like people are not necessarily thinking about afterwards early on. And for me, I think what then becomes important is to think of the other benefits of why you're doing this too. Yeah. Because these sorts of reach outs are amazing for working out what you might do afterwards, but they could have other benefits too.

Vikki: I've seen people who have had chance conversations with people in different industries who've found parallels between their research and something they hadn't even imagined before, things like that. Mm-hmm. Well, they've just met really interesting people and I think if we can also maybe take almost a little bit of the seriousness out of it that this is an amazing way to set yourself up for your career, but it's actually a real privilege just to have some interesting, you know, it's a cheap excuse to talk to some cool people, right? So, one things I love about having a podcast is I get to contact random people like you who are really impressive and interesting and be like, oh, can we talk? We'll record it. People will listen. Um, so I think there is an element to which it, it could be seen just as a, let's just talk to people, you know, tell them what you do, find out more about what they do. Be super interesting even if you never do anything in that direction. 

David: That's totally true. And actually, I'm, I'm remembering one of the episodes now, I'm, I'm not remembering the name, but I was talking with someone who, who went for their PhD in England and the person would ha would go have lunch with the philosophy people and then, and, and this is you staying in the academic thing, in the academic bubble.

David: But it really, it even, and I don't remember the exact example, but I remember the, them telling me, actually there were projects that were born out of that because I was having lunch with a philosopher and I was discussing my physics thing and, and then there was some kind of bridges between the two and there was a project born out of that.

David: So just even widening a little bit of who you are interacting with day to day at university can already bring some, like cross pollination and, and widen the, the view of what you do. So for sure, 

Vikki: definitely. Well, thank you so much. It is been amazing talking with you. I'm sure lots of my listeners are already familiar with your podcast, but for anybody who isn't, tell them where they can find you and how they can find out more about what you do. 

David: Sure. So the podcast is Beyond the Thesis with Papa PhD. You can find it on all podcasting platforms, there's a French version too. You can find me and reach out on LinkedIn. David Mendes, you should find me. The other way to, to talk to me directly is to go to, the community I've just created on this platform called School where I have some like zoom coffee time, like weekly, coffee time sessions there. So it's SKOO l.com/papa PhD. And, uh, i, it's a place where I try to have like direct, one-on-one or group, but, but direct contact with the community. there's also Papa PhD on YouTube if you, if you like to see the video versions. 

Vikki: Perfect. 

David: Thank you, Vikki. It's been a pleasure talking with you and I think it goes to show how just the power of conversation, you know, in our lives.

David: And I think it's another moment for me just to help people out there who may be introverts like I am. Of course, now I've been doing this podcast for a while, and my introversion, I was able to kind of build some muscle around it. But, you know, of course conserve your energies if you're an introvert, but do consider the power of having conversations with new people. It's huge. It can really help you a lot and especially it can help you break some like cycles of negativity or some cycles of negative self-talk that, that you might be in because it'll bring in someone else's view into the conversation. So yeah, if that's the only thing that you take from today that, you know, having, having more conversations with new people, I'll be happy for that outcome.

Vikki: I'm sure everyone will take lots. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for listening and see you next week.