3.45 How to write your discussion when you don’t know how (special coaching episode with Becci)

Today I’m coaching Becci who is writing her final thesis discussion chapter. She told me “I feel like I don't really know what I'm doing and I'm just flailing around in the dark spewing out thousands of words and wondering what my point even is. Up to now, I've found it quite easy to understand what I need to do and what chapters need to look like but this part just feels like a huge and important amorphous blob.” Hear how we worked through these thoughts and came to a plan (and listen to the end of the episode to hear where Becci is now!!)

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I'm Dr Vikki Wright, ex-Professor and certified life coach and I help everyone from PhD students to full Professors to get a bit less overwhelmed and thrive in academia. Please make sure you subscribe, and I would love it if you could find time to rate, review and tell your friends! You can send them this universal link that will work whatever the podcast app they use. http://pod.link/1650551306?i=1000695434464

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Transcript

Vikki: Before this episode starts, I've just got a quick update for you if you're listening to this live. The PhD Life Coach membership is gonna open in three weeks time, which is the 4th of August. That is when we are gonna start taking new members. If you're not on the wait list already, make sure you go there, check it out.

Vikki: And join today's episode is a coaching session where I work with a listener, Becky, who is struggling to get her writing done. You'll hear exactly what it's like to be coached by me. This is what we do week, could week out during the membership program. So make sure you check that out and keep listening right to the very end.

Vikki: 'cause I also have a little update from Becky at the end of the episode. Thanks for listening.

Vikki: Hello and welcome to the PhD Life Coach podcast, and this week we have another coaching session. Now, by the time this goes out, there will have been a couple of others in the last sort of six, eight weeks. It's a little bit of a series at the moment. These are all listeners who responded to a bit of a shout out. I did asking for people who had interesting topics that they would like coaching on, and Becci was one of the very kind students who responded. So thank you very much, Becci, for agreeing to come on.

Becci: Oh, you're very welcome. Happy to be here.

Vikki: So Becci, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you feel like you want some coaching on.

Becci: Yeah, so I come from a counseling and psychotherapy background, but also really into the outdoors. So that's what my PhD is all been about. How we can use the outdoors to promote resilience in young women. I'm up to the point where I'm three years in, well, nearly three years in. I have to be finished by October and I'm writing my discussion at the moment, but I'm finding that really challenging. The rest of the time i've kind of felt like a way to write things and there's a structure there already that I can kind of follow and just tweak and think about. But with the discussion, it feels like it's just this blob.

Becci: Like it's just bringing everything together and it's like, I have absolutely no clue really what that's supposed to look like. I know there's probably no, like, it's supposed to look like this, but it just feels like a big blob of blah. And it's not that I've got nothing to say, it's just that it's just a mess. So I feel like some coaching would be really valuable for me to get a handle on how to even start looking at this mess and making some sense of it.

Vikki: Yeah, for sure. And it's such a common thing, right? That we kind of at the beginning Okay. Do a lit review. Okay. I'm not quite sure what that is, but I can figure that out and stuff. But there is something kind of big and I guess a bit amorphous about, about a discussion. So yeah. I'm sure this is gonna be super useful for so many people. So gimme a little bit more background, the rest of the thesis exists. Is that right?

Becci: Yeah, yeah.

Vikki: So how long has the discussion been your focus for?

Becci: Oh, uh, good question. Probably about six weeks.

Vikki: Okay. Cool. So you've been working on it for about six weeks, and if I came and peered over your shoulder now, what would I see on your computer? What sort of exists?

Becci: About 20,000 words where I've just like spewed out any old stuff that comes to mind that might be somewhat relevant.

Vikki: Okay. So all discussion, but just kind of stream of consciousness. 

Becci: Yeah. Yeah. And I read, I read through some of it yesterday and was like even, I have no idea what the hell it was on about then, but cool. 

Vikki: So real kind of brain dump stuff.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: Okay. And was that sort of done like consistently over the last six weeks, or have you sort of had fits and starts? Tell me more about how this six weeks has been for you.

Becci: Um, definitely fits and starts. So there's been like some days where I feel like, oh, it's clicked, and I'll write loads of stuff. And then a lot of other times where like I'll write a few words and then be like, I don't know what my point is, and then I go down a rabbit hole of like either looking at other people's discussions in their thesis to try and understand like what that's supposed to look like or just like looking at random research that I think might be vaguely applicable and then being like, oh, I don't even remember why I was looking at this in the first place. So it has been very up and down. Yeah. Um, yeah.

Vikki: A lot of starting and then having some thoughts about it.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: And going off in different directions then from there,

Becci: yeah. Yeah. And kind of looking and thinking, oh, I think I understand now what I'm supposed to write, and then start to write stuff and then reading it back and going, no, that's not, that doesn't seem right, but we'll just leave it there for now, which I think might be part of the problem perhaps, is that I just leave everything in at the moment.

Vikki: Okay. On those days where you think, Ooh, I think I know what I'm meant to be doing now. Mm-hmm. What do you think you're meant to be doing?

Becci: Good question. Um, I don't know. It is, I think I get that thought when its like I've written something and they go, yes, that sort of feels right, but I can't quite put my finger on why that feels right. Okay. Which might be why I can't do that consistently. 'cause I don't understand why it is that that feels right in the first place.

Vikki: How did it go? So I said at the beginning that often people sort of more intuitively understand what a lit review is and then find the discussion difficult. But let's take you back to that when you wrote your introduction chapter. How did you decide what needed to go in there?

Becci: When I was writing my intro, I decided what was gonna go in there because I read a lot. So I would think about like a specific topic that was related to my overall topic or question. I'd read lots and lots of that, and then I'd make lots of notes about what it was I'd read and what felt like it stood out enough that I should write something about that.

Becci: And I just wrote, I wrote consistently, but I did like a block of reading, then some writing, then a block of reading, then some writing. I just picked out like the main concepts really. So I found that quite straightforward to do.

Vikki: And how did you decide what order to present that in and how to structure it and stuff?

Becci: I think I went with like what feels like the most important concept that I need to talk about first. So, because mine is a lot about resilience. That was like, I need to talk about that first, because that's like what underpins all of this. And then I thought, okay, so what's the next most important thing? Okay, so outdoor adventure activities, so now I need to write about that. So I think I just sort of went down what are the most important things? And then also thinking about like, what was my rationale for actually choosing to research that topic in the way that I was researching it.

Vikki: Okay. So you had some notion of what needed to be in an introduction. 

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: And you made some decisions about what order to present in. Because you know, as with anything, there's no right way you chose that. I'll start with this central concept and then do that concept. You could have done that in a different order and it would've been fine too, but you made some decisions about that kind of makes sense. And then once you had a, like a first draft say of your intro, did it mostly stay like that? Did you do dramatic rewrites? Did you restructure? Take me through how that process was.

Becci: Yeah. I didn't do any like dramatic rewrites. Um, although I did put in like an extra section recently because it just helped to structure my other chapters if like there was certain information that was in the 

Vikki: Yeah. Perfect.

Becci: Yeah. So that was like one of the bigger changes. And then it has been sort of restructured because when I read through it more recently, I was like the way that I presented certain theories didn't run sort of chronologically, so then it didn't really make sense. They sort of jumped around. So I moved those about, but I didn't do any like major, oh, I really need to rewrite that section. 'cause it's totally like gobbledy gook

Vikki: so you'd sort of made some decision, I wanna talk about this stuff and then that stuff. But then within the, this stuff, the stuff about resilience, when you then edited it, you thought actually there's a, people on YouTube can see me gesturing wildly with my hands. But you can see, you sort of like, oh, actually it would make sense to talk about this resilience theory before I talk about that one. So move those around. Okay. Tell me how the discussion feels different to that. 

Becci: It feels less straightforward. It feels like there aren't specific concepts that I definitely need to discuss. Even though that is, is probably not true, but that's what it feels like. It's like it, it's much less specific in that I can't just go Right. Well it is this, this is really important to my research, this concept. This is really important to my research. Write about those. Um, and also,

Vikki: I mean, can't you?

Becci: Probably, but I think that's part of my issue maybe, is like trying to pick out what those important concepts are. Because I feel like I'm getting lost in the fact that there's lots of them.

Vikki: Why does it feel like there's more concepts in the discussion than in the introduction?

Becci: Um, because throughout my thesis have been like building up theory, and now these theories feel very complex. And have lots of different elements to them. And so then it feels like I have to unpick all of those, but that feels like an impossible task to do in a limited amount of words and time. So it feels like what I'm trying to do is like pick out the key concepts, but then I'm like, but then I'm missing all this other stuff, which is also really relevant. Why isn't that as important as this thing over here? Then I like perhaps trying to include absolutely everything, and then there's things outside of my theories as well that I'm like, oh, I should be talking about that. It feels like, because it feels like that's a big important part of it, but I, there's no space for that.

Vikki: So are you trying to combine, you say you are developing theories and stuff. Are you trying to combine those theories into some sort of unifying framework or are they distinct from each other, sort of covering different elements of this? 

Becci: Uh, a bit of both. So I've got like 13 theories that are like very specific. And then I'm hoping to combine all of those into one sort of three framework. There's a bit more usable really for practitioners. But all those individual theories are also important.

Vikki: Have you developed that framework yet?

Becci: I've developed a version of that keeps changing every five minutes based on whatever idea I've had about what my discussions should look like that day.

Vikki: And is your discussion where you're presenting your unified framework?

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: Okay. So. What makes the unified framework keep moving?

Becci: My ideas about how much I should include and what is useful to include, and then when I think I've got a handle on that, I then think about the type of methodology I'm using and that I should be focusing on this other thing that's not actually in there anymore because I thought it wasn't maybe that useful for people. So it kind of moves around depending on what perspective I'm looking at it from, I guess.

Vikki: Mm-hmm. Okay. So the reason just for everyone listening, the reason I'm kind of, burrowing in on this is I think you've actually got two different tasks here. I think you've got the task of deciding your unified framework.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: And you've got the task of writing your discussion. And I think part of the problem is you're trying to do them both at once.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: And I don't think that's necessarily a problem in the sense of, you know, some of the drafting of the discussion might help shape your thoughts about the framework. But at some point the framework needs to be solidified so that you can finish the discussion.

Becci: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually. And I do wonder whether, part of the problem that I have with this at the minute is that it feels like a big, like a massive part of my thesis and that I don't want to just. If I settle on an idea and go, yes, that's, that's what I'm using, then I want that to be like, right, for want of a better word. I know there'll be no right or wrong, really, but I want that. I like, I want to be really happy with that and certain that like that's how I want it to be. And I think maybe because it feels so important and so big, it's like I can't settle on it because. Maybe looking for like this perfection that isn't ever going to materialize.

Vikki: Because what would a right and perfect theory look like? How would you know it's right and perfect?

Becci: Um, I dunno, to be honest, and I, I think, yeah, well, I, I am aware that that doesn't really exist. Um. So it's probably a bit, um, pointless sort of trying to look for that. I guess what I'm hoping for I think is like just a feeling of, 'cause I'm quite intuitive about stuff and I can kind of go, yeah, that's, that feels right. And I just feel like I don't have that with this at all. I just constantly going, no, it can't be yet done.

Vikki: What do you think makes it hard to declare it done?

Becci: Um, maybe like a fear of getting it wrong and it not just not being what I want it to be.

Vikki: Yeah. And why would that be bad?

Becci: Uh, because at the end of the day, I have to defend it. And if in like a few months time, I'm like, yeah, no, I don't think that's actually right anymore. Then I guess I'm maybe worried about having to defend something that I no longer believe to be true.

Vikki: I mean, is that what you would do in the Viva?

Becci: Uh, that's what I feel like I had to do. Whether I would actually do that, I'm not really sure. Um, 'cause I haven't really thought about what I would do if that happened. I think, 'cause I've been so focused on not letting that happen.

Vikki: and what does defending it mean to you?

Becci: Oh, um, what does defending it mean to me? Like, being able to say why I think that is the case and the evidence that I've got to back that up. Yeah.

Vikki: The only thing we have to tweak there slightly is just the tense. So defending this in your Viva is explaining why you did it the way you did it. That has no resemblance to whether you still think that is the best way to do it.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: This is why I chose to do it the way it's presented in front of you. And then to some extent you get to see how the conversation goes. Right? Because if they start saying, well actually, why didn't you combine those ones together and have that as a separate element? And at that point you can go, you know what? I've been thinking the same thing since I wrote it. I actually think it might make more sense. That is something I'd love to hear more what you're thinking, you know, and have a conversation about that.

Vikki: Because you can make changes after your viva, right? That's, yeah. That's how this stuff works. You get corrections. Now, I'm not saying you necessarily like launch into, by the way, I think everything I wrote is wrong. I've changed my mind. But you can still explain why you did it the way you did it. Yeah. Wait and see what they say.

Becci: Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it like that. Yeah, because I guess I, I, ideas change all the time, don't they? And as long as you can explain why you did what you did at the point that they've read it at. 

Vikki: Yeah.

Becci: Then I guess, yeah, that's maybe what the discussion bit is about and yeah, I never really, I think, 'cause I, I acknowledge that I'm gonna have corrections. 'Cause like I hear that pretty much everybody has corrections, so that's like, yeah, there's, things are gonna change in it, but I think i've very much been thinking along the lines of, well, it has to be as close to perfect as I can get it by the time I submit it.

Vikki: Um, it has to be defensible.

Becci: Yeah. And then, yeah, not really thinking that actually it did change my mind about something and that then came out in the viva, then I can change it and that would be fine.

Vikki: So I actually think, I think this is really interesting one, because for a lot of people, their kind of main propositions, I guess, are made in the results chapters, right? And they share their findings in the results chapters, and then in the discussion chapter, they're really kind of contextualizing that to other literature, explaining what it means and things like that.

Vikki: Whereas actually there's an element to which for you, your discussion is a little bit resulty in the sense that you are presenting this framework.

Becci: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Vikki: And I think that does make it a slightly different thing. And I think part of the issue here is I think you're not distinguishing that that's slightly different than your average, you know, if you've done a big qualitative study. Here's all my themes and whatever. Here's this da, da, da. And then you, you're not presenting a new framework. You're just talking about what this means for outdoor education in the future or whatever. Yeah. Then it's a little different. So I have a question that might help clarify some of this stuff.

Vikki: So once you've presented this framework in your discussion, what would be the next steps for either you as a researcher or for people who've read your work in the future, who want to build on your work in the future, to take that framework and do things with it? What would be the next things that people might want to do with a theoretical framework?

Becci: Um, applying it to interventions. Which I sort of did in one of my other, well, I did do in one of my other chapters, before I like refined the theories. But yeah. So there'd be, it would be, yeah, applying that to interventions, and perhaps on a, a larger scale than what I've already done within my thesis. 

Vikki: Um, so they'd be testing it essentially.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah.

Vikki: I think that is also really important because the next steps of changing a framework or adopting a framework, depending on what happens, is to test it in some sort of intervention way or in some other way, and then to decide from there whether it stands up to that next test or whether it needs modifying or whatever.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah.

Vikki: Is that fair?

Becci: Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely fair. Yeah. It also makes me think of something that I've not actually considered is that because I've taken a realist approach, a like from a realist perspective, no theory is ever like perfect there. It is gonna be fallible and it constantly should be being revised. So kind of missing the point by trying to do something that's like a perfect theory 'cause that doesn't exist and isn't supposed to.

Vikki: Hmm. How does that feel? Noticing that?

Becci: Uh, kind of freeing 'cause it's like, I do what I can do at this point with the knowledge that I've got now and actually the point is that it would be yeah, tested and refined further anyway. Or tested and adopted depending on what happened. So yeah, it feels, yeah, freeing, I think.

Vikki: And that means you could potentially change things as part of your corrections if it comes up in the viva or the defense as it's known elsewhere in the world , but it also means that you've got the option to write this up as a moment in time, essentially, that at this point, without more data, without this being used in a different context or tested in some other way, here's a pretty good representation of what I think this theory is.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah. That's actually really helpful. Um, 'cause it's just thinking about it in that slightly different way, isn't it? This is what I think right now, but yeah, there's limitations to that. I had already thought about the limitations and kind of put that, but then not really, I don't know, viewing the work really through that lens. I think maybe I was like, when it is a limitation 'cause it felt like I should, instead of understanding like that actually is a limitation.

Vikki: Yeah. Hmm. I was talking to some, in fact, it might even have been when I was recording another podcast this week, somebody I was coaching this week anyway. We were talking about how it can sometimes be really freeing and inspiring to remember that the end of your thesis is the beginning of somebody else's.

Becci: Hmm. Yeah, I like that.

Vikki: Somebody else will read your thesis or will read the papers that come from your thesis and we'll go, oh, that's really interesting. But I can see a gap.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: And that gap's where I'm gonna write my PhD.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: I'm gonna take this and apply it in children, or I'm gonna take this and apply it in dance instead of outdoor ed or whatever. 'Cause that's what we've done, right? You've read people's research, you've found it fascinating. You've spotted stuff they haven't done, that in no way undermines the work that they did.

Becci: Yeah. It's different.

Vikki: And now you build on that.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah. I never really thought about it like that before. That's a, a really nice way to think about it.

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Vikki: So let's go back to a couple of practicalities. As far as you are aware, what bits need to be in your thesis. So in your introduction, it sounds as though you kind of went with, um, sort of concepts like, you know, I need resilience, I need outdoor ed, da da da. Yeah. In the discussion what sort of, almost what jobs need doing. I need a block that does this job. I need a block that does that job. Let's have a brainstorm about what that is.

Becci: Yeah. I need a block. I'll start easy. That summarizes what I've done so far and like the main, the main outputs of that.

Vikki: Yes. Good. So we need a relatively brief summary of the main outputs. Perfect. What else? What other blocks do we need?

Becci: Um, for me, I need a block about how these refined versions of the theories came to be.

Vikki: Okay.

Becci: Because I haven't covered that elsewhere.

Vikki: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So we need a block about how they came to be. What else?

Becci: A block about what they are.

Vikki: Yeah. A block presenting the framework essentially.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: I am proposing this framework for these reasons.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: Okay. What else?

Becci: And then it gets trickier because I think then I'm not really sure.

Vikki: Think about other people. So if it's hard to think about for yours, let's put yours to one side. You said that sometimes you procrastinate by looking at other people's chapters. That's great. Love it. What blocks do other people put in their discussions?

Becci: I think what struck me about other people's discussions is they're all so different. So it's really hard to say, what they had in the, I guess, there's always something about the like, um, like bigger theories that underpin what they've found. Like essentially why might I have found what I've found based on the theory.

Vikki: So something that recontextualizes it back into the literature, whether that's back into the theory, whether it's back into other empirical data. Have you ever seen the, the funnel? that describes. this describes both articles and thesises. Those of you on a podcast listening to this audio, I'm gonna try and explain what I'm drawing. If you're on video, you can see the picture. So essentially, if you imagine like a bow tie on its side, like a funnel with a narrow bit in the middle, and then a funnel back out again. A research article or a thesis should roughly be shaped like this. We start nice and wide, so I'm gonna guess your introduction starts. Something about why lack of resilience is a problem, and blah, blah, what issues it causes for mental health, things like that. Then it probably goes into something about how outdoor ed has been demonstrated as a environment in which resilience can be found.

Vikki: So we're getting a little bit more narrow 'cause we're not just talking about resilience, we're talking about resilience and outdoor ed. Then probably go through some theories of resilience or theories of how it, you know, evidence that it can be changed in outdoor ed, da da da. And then you get all the way down at the end of your introduction.

Vikki: And obviously with a full thesis, this is a bit more complex than I'm doing here, but in an article, usually you then have a final paragraph that says something like, therefore the current study will blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay? And that's the end of this first bit of the funnel. And then your research is this very narrow bit in between the what I did and what I find is the very specific to you, very narrow.

Vikki: And then in your discussion you usually start with the current study found, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like you said, bit of a summary and then it starts getting wider again. It starts recontextualizing it back out into the world. Okay. And then there's a couple of chunks in here, which I'll talk about in a second that you definitely need, and then by the end, you finish with some sort of conclusion that brings it back out to its widest thing. Probably relates back to where you started the introduction. That just sort of zooms right back out again and says therefore this theoretical framework has the potential to improve the way that we build resilience in young women with this benefit or whatever. Yeah. So we start wide. We come on narrow, narrow and narrow. And narrow and narrow. We do our thing, we build it back out again, and there we are. And the nice thing, if you can imagine two of those sat on top of each other, this bottom of your funnel becomes the top of somebody else's funnel and they start coming back in again for their piece of research.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Vikki: Okay, so we definitely want stuff summarizing. We definitely for you like presenting the theory and how it fits with other theories, how it kind of helps explain things we've seen in the literature. Da, da, da. Can you think of any other chunks that need to go any discussion?

Becci: Uh, yeah. Strengths and limitations.

Vikki: A hundred percent. Yep. So we're gonna have a strengths and limitations bit.

Becci: Um, um, recommendations and future research.

Vikki: Future research. Beautiful. And then we're gonna finish. Okay.

Becci: Simple as that.

Vikki: But I want you to notice, and when you listen to this podcast, you'll be able to go back and listen to this for yourself. And it was certainly true in the email that you sent me. I want you to notice how much you were telling yourself. I've got no idea.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: I've got no clue. It's a mystery. I could even pull up. I won't bully you. Let's see. Here we go. Here's the email. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm flailing around in the dark, wondering, spewing out thousands of words and wondering what my point even is.

Becci: Yeah, it sounds about right.

Vikki: But it's not true.

Becci: No, it's not true

Vikki: because you've just told me all the bits that a discussion needs.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah.

Vikki: The trouble is, I'm sure it feels like that. I'm not undermining the fact that inside here it feels like you're flailing around in the dark. A hundred percent get that, but it's really important you don't tell yourself that's true. Because it might feel like you are spinning outta control, but you know what chunks this needs.

Becci: Yeah. I do apparently.

Vikki: And when we tell ourselves we don't, it becomes this impossible. I just can't. It's like, have you ever seen the videos online where there's like a little kid and he looks like he's drowning? He's like flailing and flailing. And panicking and panicking, and then the mum goes. Put your feet down. He's, oh, I can't swim. Put your feet down. Can't swim. I can't swim. And then he puts his feet down and he stands up and the water's up to about his chest. He's like, put your feet down. You're fine. And that's not to say his panics not real.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: But it's a little bit like that now, I think that you're, I can't do it. I can't do it. I even know what's involved. I have no idea. I'm just flailing around. It's like, put your feet down for a second. Just put your feet on the floor.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: You know, some of the bits that this needs.

Becci: Yeah, yeah. And I think I just keep telling myself that same story, don't I? Of like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm confused. I dunno what I'm supposed to be doing, but I'm writing something so I must have some inkling of what's supposed to be going in. Yeah. And also, yeah, I've been able to say what sort of sections need to go in it, so I do. Yeah. I must have some idea.

Vikki: Now, when you think about this 20,000 words or whatever that you've written. And you think about, if we think about those sections that you just came up with as buckets.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: Do you have a feel either off the top of your head or if you went and looked at it for which bits would get thrown into which bucket?

Becci: Uh, yeah. Yeah, I think so. Like I'd have to go back and read parts of it to understand where they fit, but, um, for the most part, yeah.

Vikki: And do you feel like there are some buckets that you've written loads for that's a bit of a mess, and some buckets that you haven't written for? Or do you feel like you'd have bits in all of them, or,

Becci: uh, I think there's definitely like ones that I'd have quite a lot in um, and ones that would be quite sparse. Or maybe not sparse, but like just very descriptive. Which I know just isn't, yeah. It means just isn't finished, basically.

Vikki: Yeah. So I think that's a useful exercise to do is to almost give yourself Word documents that are your buckets. Start chucking them out in to the different bits. The other thing I want to really, we'll come back to this thing about decisions in a second, but the other thing I want you and everyone listening to be really clear on is writing is many different things and it has many different purposes, and I think often PhD students get this mixed up. Because usually we think of writing as a way of generating the end product.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: Yeah. Writing is how we are creating the thesis that we hand in, which is absolutely true. You have to do that bit of writing, but writing is also a way of thinking. And a way of understanding what's in your brain, understanding what you don't understand very well. Testing ways of saying things, testing ideas to see if they make sense when you write them down. And that's a beautiful thing. That's a really good way of thinking. But what we often end up doing, and I wonder whether this is what you are doing, you can tell me, is we end up, we are doing that, really we're using writing to think, but we are beating ourselves up that it doesn't look like an end product.

Becci: Yeah. I think I, because I do do a lot of like writing to think intentionally, so I've got lots of other documents of just like process notes essentially. Um, and then I think. I just think that the other document that has the title discussion chapter

Vikki: Yeah.

Becci: Is supposed to look like whatever a discussion chapter is supposed to look like. And when it doesn't, I'm like, ah, that means I don't dunno what I'm doing. Yeah. But yeah, perhaps I am just doing more of the thinking just on a document with a different name.

Vikki: I think so.

Becci: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Vikki: So how do you go from, at what point do you transition and how, from writing as thinking to creating a piece of writing as an end product. 

Becci: Um, think about like what makes me then open up a document to name it, like whatever chapter, instead of just like processing it. It would be, usually it would be having some idea of what it is I want to say, and understanding what the structure of that needs to look like to get that message across.

Becci: I think what might have happened with my discussion chapter is like getting a bit impatient and just going, yes, I'll figure that out as I go along, but then being confused about why I haven't already figured it out before I've started, if that makes sense.

Vikki: Yeah. Now I don't know that it's necessarily impatience, and we'll talk about that in a sec, but I think that a lack of clarity as to whether you are writing the discussion that you will hand in or whether you are still writing to understand the points you want to make. Yeah, I think you've told yourself, you are writing the discussion as an end product. But because you haven't yet decided exactly what your point is or what the structure should be, you are actually writing as thinking, which is absolutely fine. There's no problems with that. 

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: Other than you're expecting it to somehow end up as a discussion that you can hand in.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: When that's not what you are doing, you're just thinking on a piece of paper.

Becci: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's exactly what's happened.

Vikki: So. In order to get, you said, in order to start writing as an actual product? You want to know the points you're trying to make and remember, that doesn't have to be the point you're trying to make for the entire discussion, but for each of those sections we're talking about, you need to know the point you're trying to make and a first attempt at a structure.

Vikki: We're obviously gonna restructure things if we want to as we go through, but a first attempt at a structure. What makes it difficult to go from your kind of writing as thinking thoughts on a piece of paper stuff to deciding what you're gonna say and having an approximation of a structure.

Becci: I think having lots of ideas and not being able to discern which ones feel like they hold the most weight. Um, because then it's like, I'm just trying to make too many points. So then I don't make any of them in any particular depth or very well, I just, they're just loads of ideas. Um, and then the structure, I think, again, like if I understood what I was trying to say a bit better, I'd then be able to structure it fine, because I'd be like, well, this is this idea and this is this idea.

Becci: But because it's like just all these ideas and I don't really know which ones should hold more weight than others.

Vikki: The structure problems comes from the other bit a hundred percent. This is exactly the same as anybody who like me believed that the solution to being able to do everything was to find the right planner and jam it all in when actually the problem was you're putting in too many things, or the people out there who think that the key to making your house less cluttered is to go and buy new plastic boxes, to put things in.

Vikki: It's the same thing, if you all got too many ideas, there is no structure that's gonna make all of those ideas come together and make sense. 

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: So what makes it hard to pick one or to pick a key idea that you want to focus on or a key framework?

Becci: Um, I think, again, it's like what we were saying earlier on about trying to decide upon when is my overall framework done? Um, it's just, yeah, not wanting to make a decision because not being totally convinced that any of them are a hundred percent right, but that's 'cause that doesn't exist. And so then I'm like reluctant to get rid of anything. 'cause that might be the one that turns out to be correct. For want of a better word.

Vikki: Yeah, a hundred percent. This is, and we, we talk about this in our membership a lot with my clients. This is not a don't know problem. This is an I haven't decided problem.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah.

Vikki: There is no knowing. There is no. I'm confused. I'm not sure which it should be. This is a, I haven't decided what this framework looks like yet. yeah, and there's lots of reasons for that, right? It feel, especially at the end of a PhD, it feels like a really big deal to like put the capital letters on your theoretical framework and say, yep, this is, this is the framework I'm putting out into the world. I'm hanging my hat on that. It feels like a massive deal. So I don't wanna like undermine that that feels scary. But this isn't that. You don't know. You're just avoiding the emotions that might come with picking one of the versions.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that extends out to like deciding what points I want to make within the rest of my discussion. 'Cause it's like I, yeah, I don't wanna make a decision about it rather than, it is not like I've got not got any ideas. I've got 20,000 words worth of ideas. Yes, but I just can't decide which ones I want to stick with.

Vikki: You are choosing not to decide.

Becci: Yeah

Vikki: not can't. You're perfectly capable of deciding. If I said, I've got a million pounds in a box for you over here, if you can email me a version of your theoretical framework in the next half an hour. Yeah, I reckon you'd pick.

Becci: Oh yeah

Vikki: you are more than capable.

Becci: I absolutely would.

Vikki: You are more than capable of picking. You just haven't chosen that you are going to yet.

Becci: Mm yeah. I think that is very true

Vikki: and now with small things, it's easy to go. Just pick. It's fine. It doesn't matter. You can make either work. It's fine. With something like this though, where you know you wanna have your best shot at this, what I would really encourage you to do is go, okay. I haven't made a decision about this yet. What process do I want to go through in order to decide? So it's like if you were buying a car, okay, that can be really overwhelming, right? There's so many options. It's a stressful decision, it's a lot of money, blah, blah, blah. You say, okay, my process is. I'm gonna go to these three garages. I'm gonna narrow it down to price range this, features that, whatever else, color, who knows? Um, and then I'll narrow it down to four cars. And on the basis of that, I'm gonna do this. And my priority, when push comes to shove is gonna be price, say. Okay. That's not necessarily a right way of doing it. Everyone would have a different version of that, but that's what I want you to think about for your framework, and it's something you can discuss with your supervisor is what options have I got? Like realistically, how many different ways could this framework look? 

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: And I have no idea whether there's like 40 ways this could look or whether actually you are picking between two or three nuanced versions.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: What are my options and what process do I need to go through in order to pick?

Becci: Mm-hmm.

Vikki: Because then you decide, okay, and then I pick, and then I look after the emotions I've got about that decision.

Becci: Yeah

Vikki: because you will have emotions. You will have these, or what if I pick the wrong thing, or I really like that bit, that was really good. Or whatever, you will. But the truth is there's a whole load of emotions as you've learned around not making decisions too.

Becci: Yeah.

Vikki: And they feel rubbish.

Becci: Yeah. You don't get anything done either. Yeah.

Vikki: This can sound like a strange question. Are you going to hand in your thesis?

Becci: Yeah. Yeah.

Vikki: Yeah? A hundred percent.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah.

Vikki: So you are gonna make this decision at some point? 

Becci: Yeah, I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vikki: Because you are going to hand it in, and even if you know one option is that you only vaguely make a decision and so you hand in something vague and that is your decision. Or you are gonna pick one version of this a bit more concretely, and that's what hand in Yeah. You are gonna choose this, so you get to pick when you're gonna choose this.

Becci: Yeah. It is what's that process, isn't it? To go through, to pick stuff? And I've had to pick lots of things along the way. So I obviously have ways of doing that. I'm trying to think what my ways of doing that have been because I, yeah, I must have done that. I think what I did right at the very beginning, I had to like pick between, basically my, like my initial theories and ideas that I had about why things work, and I had like probably about a hundred different ones and I had the same thing there of like, how do I narrow that down to being just like, I don't know, less than 10 and I remember going through a process of printing everything off. Cutting them all up and sitting on the floor at my mom and dad's house when I was looking after the cat, and just like organizing them into like different piles and then deciding what I thought about them.

Becci: And I don't know how I would do something similar here. And I don't really know how I then decided between the piles, but there must have been some way of doing that. But I'm wondering if I could do a similar sort of thing.

Vikki: Yeah. Whether there's some mechanical way of actually, you know, almost drawing. I've got this version of a framework. I've got that version, I've got that version and drawing as many versions as you've got. Yeah, because it's a bit like, you know when you're clearing out your wardrobe or something, right? You are like, oh, but I do wear that sometimes I do quite like it, so yeah, I'll keep it or whatever. But then when you go to your wardrobe to put something on, I bet there are things that with all the gray sweatshirts, I usually pick this one or whatever.

Becci: Yeah

Vikki: you get to do that. Even with theoretical frameworks and things, it's like between those two, this one just makes more sense to me because X, Y, Z. Okay, cool. Well what about this one up against that one? Well, actually Yeah, I kind of like that one a bit more, and then you think, are there ways I can combine what I like of both of those into some sort of other version, but so, so to holding each, you know, two, rather than being like, how do I pick out of these 10 versions? Picking two? Which make more sense outta these two. That one can go over there. That's the charity shop pile for now, right? Compare this to another one. Which would I pick out of those? Pick two other ones, which, right, and we bring it down to three or four, and then from there we're like, right. What characterizes that one? What characterizes that one? Yeah, and there isn't a right way of picking. You can pick which one fits my data the best, which one fits my philosophical beliefs the best, and which any of those are perfectly legitimate. You just have to be able to explain it.

Becci: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I've been trying to, like, I've not been comparing stuff. I've just been thinking about them in silo. So then it's like, well, they've all got some kind of merit, otherwise I wouldn't have done them in the first place. But yeah, that might actually be really helpful to compare them to each other and then decide.

Becci: And I wonder if that is what I did right back at the beginning when I had my initial ones, is like I looked through them and compared them and thought about which ones fit the best. Rather than just staring at the same ones and going, well, yes, that's true. And then looking at another one going, yeah, that's probably true as well. So yeah, that comparing them might actually be really helpful. 

Vikki: Amazing. So do you feel like you've got some next steps that you can take to kind of tackle this?

Becci: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely need to firm up my ideas about the theory and the framework before I try and like actually put the, because essentially my discussion is discussing the ideas within that. So it's, if my ideas about that, they're all over the place. And of course the ideas on my document are all over the place.

Vikki: Yeah. I wouldn't do any more discussion work until you've fixed on a framework. Because even the limitations, and some of the limitations will be generic because they'll be about the methods that you used and things, but any limitations to do with the interpretation and stuff is gonna depend which framework you're talking about. Future directions will depend which version you're talking about. So, and it sounds as though you've already got a load of text that you can draw on when you're ready to start writing. But yeah, getting that bit really pinned down and knowing that that's a decision. It's not a solution. It's a decision.

Becci: Yeah. I think that'll really help to then be able to actually write something. Um, for sure.

Vikki: Yeah. You're not in the dark. No. You're not flailing around. You've made complex decisions before. You're gonna make a decision about this one 'cause you are handing it in.

Becci: Yeah. And when I do hand it in, it doesn't have to be, this is perfect and my ideas can't change about it ever 'cause that's the point.

Vikki: A hundred percent. That's your postdoc work or somebody else's PhD or whatever it might be. Yeah, yeah. Research is the end of one story and the beginning of the next, always. If no one ever did any work to follow up your research, that's pretty boring.

Becci: Yes. It's a waste of time, isn't it?

Vikki: That's the key. We don't, that's the thing is often, especially as PhD students, we want our thesis to be like the final word on a topic like ta-da. Actually, that's the most depressing thing in the world. No one wants to be the final word in a topic. We want to inspire a whole load more people to be like, oh my goodness, that's so interesting. What a fascinating framework. We could use that in this context. I wonder whether that would work just as well in this context or using this measure instead of that measure or whatever. That's why we want people to take it.

Becci: Yeah. That's what I want, is I want it to be, yeah, used in the future, not just sat there looking nice. There's no point in that, is there? 

Vikki: Exactly. Amazing. Well thank you so much for agreeing to come on, Becci. I know this is something that lots of the listeners will be struggling with too, or will be even anticipating struggling with if they're not at that stage. So thank you for being so open and honest. And thank you everyone for listening and I will see you next week.

Vikki: So I mentioned there'd be a sneaky update at the end of the episode, and that's because a few weeks after I recorded this episode with Becci, I got an email from her just updating me. She said, I'm just getting in touch with a quick update. I've now finished my discussion chapter and sent it to my supervisors for comments. Yippee! I know it is far from perfect and I'm okay with that. I'm just looking forward to hearing what my team think. The coaching really helped me to understand. What was in my way and how I could think about it all a bit differently. So thank you. I've also been shortlisted for PhD Student of the year and got a job since we last spoke, so it is celebrations all round at the moment.

Vikki: This is obviously a gorgeous message to receive and it shows how much, just a little bit of coaching, a little bit of thought work can really help you take huge steps forward.

Vikki: So, massive congratulations, Becci. And hope to see lots of you who are inspired by this on the wait list for the membership soon.

Thank you for listening to the PhD Life Coach podcast. If you like this episode, please tell your friends, your colleagues, and your universities. I'd appreciate it if you took the time to like leave a review, give me stars, stickers, and all that general approval as well. If you'd like to find out more about working with me, either for yourself or for people at your university, please check out my website at the PhD life coach com.

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