3.48 What to do when you don’t make time for yourself (special coaching episode with Gillian)

Today I’m coaching Gillian who is a member of The PhD Life Coach membership! She has been making great progress on her procrastination during Q2 of the membership, but asked for coaching around making time for herself. She lives with her parents and young son, and finds that she spends all her time in daughter mode, mum mode, and PhD student mode, and hasn’t been “just Gillian” for a while. She also finds the different roles blend together which can make her feel like she’s doing everything and nothing at the same time. Listen in as we work through her challenges and come up with a plan! 

If you found this episode useful, you might also like this one with Marie on How to plan your week. 

****
I'm Dr Vikki Wright, ex-Professor and certified life coach and I help everyone from PhD students to full Professors to get a bit less overwhelmed and thrive in academia. Please make sure you subscribe, and I would love it if you could find time to rate, review and tell your friends! You can send them this universal link that will work whatever the podcast app they use. http://pod.link/1650551306?i=1000695434464

I also host a free online community for academics at every level. You can sign up on my website, The PhD Life Coach. com - you'll receive regular emails with helpful tips and access to free online group coaching every single month! Come join and get the support you need.

Transcript

Just jumping in quickly with two things that I wanted to tell you. The first, this is gonna be the last episode for season three. So if you're listening live, it is the 4th of August. We will start up again properly on the 1st of September, so there'll be a few weeks without a new episode, but you've got my entire back catalogue. The second thing is, again, if you're listening to this live, quarter three of the PhD Life Coach membership is open. If you want more support with your PhD, you wanna feel like you're not battling through this alone. If you still procrastinate, if you wanna figure out how to have a better relationship with your supervisor, if you wanna feel part of something with other people who have the same challenges as you, make sure you check it out. Go to my website, the PhD life coach.com. Click on the membership. You'll find all the details. You get access to online group coaching, mini workshops that are live. You can get asynchronous coaching where you send me questions and I'll send back a private podcast where I answer those questions. There's self-paced materials. There's everything you could possibly want. The members organize coworking. I organize some coworkings. It's amazing. Check it out.

Today's episode is with Gillian, who is actually one of my members. So it is a coaching session with one of my members. And if you wanna experience anything like that, you need to join the membership.

Vikki: Hello and welcome to the PhD Life Coach and we have another special coaching episode and I am particularly excited to be joined by Gillian because not only has Gillian volunteered to be coached here today on the podcast, she is also one of my members in the PhD life coach membership. So welcome Gillian.

Gilian: Hello. It's lovely to be here, Vikki. 

Vikki: It's fabulous to have you here. So why don't you go ahead and tell people a little bit about why you got in touch, what it is that you think would be useful to get coaching on. 

Gilian: Okay. So, when I saw the chance to be coach one to one, I thought it would actually be a good chance for me to try and open up a bit because I don't tend to actually take much time to talk about myself. I see it as something that's maybe a sign of weakness and it's something that I know I'm trying to work on. And then I started thinking about what would be better or what could make my life better if I could just do something about it. And that's when I thought, actually, for me, taking time just for me is something that I don't really do. So I have PhD time, I have mommy time, I have, you know, time looking after parents, but I don't actually, there's nowhere in my diary where I do something just for me. And so, yeah, I reached out and, and here I am. So I'm hoping to see if I can get a bit of a better balance in life. 

Vikki: Perfect. And I think it was such a useful topic when you suggested it. 'Cause I think some people will be in your sort of situation where they're trying to do parenting, their caring whilst doing their PhDs, others, um, I've got lots of listeners, lots of clients as you know, who've also got full-time jobs alongside their PhDs and things like that. And others, it's just their PhDs become so all consuming that it feels like there's never space for themselves. So tell me a little bit more about why it feels like a problem for you. 

Gilian: Well, I think part of it is when you were saying about you're quite right, we're not not feeling there's enough space that part of the thing with the PhD is there's always this looming, mysterious figure almost over your shoulder going, you've gotta get it done by this date. And then in my mind I get to these negative thoughts coming and going, but what happens if you get ill? You could, you're okay now, but you could get behind. You must try and be ahead, but you know, you're behind, I mustn't stop. And the other thing is of course you can get stuck down that rabbit hole because I do, we all care about what we're researching. So sometimes you could have something you are looking at on a Friday afternoon where you think, Ooh, this is really good. And before you know it, you can be picking up a book you've been looking at again whilst you are ignoring family. And it's an easy excuse, isn't it? I can't come out tonight. I'm working on this for my chapter. So it's an easy out, but it's not a healthy thing to do because I still have two and a bit years to go. That's not a balance. 

Vikki: Yeah. And I think that's so insightful to recognize that there's different reasons why this might be, that part of it sounds like it's a little bit sort of fear and anxiety driven, of kind of must do more, must be further ahead, must not get behind. But there is an extent to which that sometimes it's a temptation driven thing. You know, we get all fascinated with our work and actually it's that we are drawn into it rather than it being out of fear. But both can have consequences, right? 

Gilian: Yeah. And that's the thing and. I think I was pretty aware, maybe that was at the forefront of my mind. My son last week he had something where he was hoping I'd be able to take him to it, but I had to coax it outta him and I said, well, why didn't you say something? And he went, well, your PhD is just more important. And I went, no, it's not, it's not more important than your happiness. This is not a PhD versus you. That's when I thought, oh no . So for about 12 years before I started my masters, I taught at secondary schools and I'd left that to have a better balance with my son and then realize that in an odd way, this is not somebody externally putting these pressures on, it's me, but I'm doing the same thing to myself, so I'm still not available to him in the way I should be or could be. You are always gonna get pressure points. I'm not saying, I mean, PhDs are not easy, but I realize I'm not as available as I should be and I'm shutting 'em out, and that's not something I want to do.

Vikki: Yeah, no, definitely. And I think what often happens, and I think this will be interesting for us to dive into, what often happens is that people don't really define what as available as I "should" be. We don't really define what that extent of availability is, and so we always have this kind of general feel that we are not doing enough for our kids, or we are not doing enough for our PhD or for our parents, or for our other job or whatever it may be, without really defining what that would look like anyway.

Gilian: Yeah.

Vikki: So do you have an idea as to how available you should be for your son? 

Gilian: I don't, um, I don't think it's necessarily, I haven't really fully set, but I am aware that I am the sort of person where if there's an interesting online thing on a weekend or whatever, that I would be prioritize, I'd go, well, I'm going to that then and you'll be okay, uh, because you've got granny or grandad or, or whatever. So, I think because I have very blurred end of the week boundaries or lack of that, then there isn't a sense of for most people, if you've got a parent who's going off to work once they. Where they're home now so I can access them. But there is this strange thing when you obviously are doing, um, I'm quite a distance from the university I study at as well. It takes over two hours to drive there. So, most of my work is done here. So home and work and all of that blends. And I think that's part of the problem is, you know, when I'm available, it's not as clear as when I used to go and work in a school.

Vikki: And how do you decide which it is?

Gilian: Um, I don't think I have actually, that's what I realized is so damaging. I don't think I have actually actively thought about being a bit, I tend to, if there's been, um. We more of our time together, it's been if we've gone away on holidays together, and now when I look, I think it's no wonder that he probably really likes the holidays because then I down PhD tools and it's fully family time.

Gilian: I haven't really thought about separating the two, the PhD world from my home world, they have collided in a messy, um,

Vikki: I think that's gonna be really interesting to explore because if you are already doing it with holidays, 'cause I don't want you to think that's inevitable. Okay. I have clients who really struggle with not working when they're on holiday. So it's not inevitable that you down your PhD tools and don't do it that. So you are already setting some boundaries. So I think it's gonna be really interesting to explore why you set those boundaries with holidays and to start thinking about what boundaries might look like at home as well. But before we get into that, I mentioned at the beginning that you are already in my membership, and one of the things I think is interesting with this stuff is to sort of think about what are you already trying to do. So perhaps tell people a little bit about why you decided to join the membership and whether there's any of this stuff or other stuff that you've been kind of trying to work on already. I know you've only been in a couple of weeks.

Gilian: So I joined the membership after coming to one of your monthly, the free workshops, which was amazing. And then it was one of the first things I'd been to where your advice was actually, there was a support for actually saying it's okay to, to have worries and things, but also you've gotta have that compassion, but also let's look at how we can try and make things better.

Gilian: You can't just go, it's okay and leave it 'cause that's not what your membership's about. And I, I came away from it and I was buzzing. And that was a workshop to do with procrastination. Which after that I had this huge to do list and I realized that a lot of the problems was my own fear because I hadn't broken things down. That I'd got far too much on it, that I'd got things on it that I didn't need to look at for another six months, but that I still just had. So I had things in the wrong places. And after that, I just knew as soon as, so I, um, had to wait for the, the next round of the membership to be available to join. But I knew that I wanted to be part of it. And, it's been so lovely being part of the community actually, to realize that I'm not the only person who struggles with so many different things. Procrastination, self doubt, organization, and that these aren't necessarily skills that you go into a PhD just knowing. 'Cause that's the other thing I found with a membership is I think so many of us came to PhDs just thinking, we should know this because the way that it, they're not really discussed in a lot of institutions. There's just this suggestion. You should have an innate understanding of juggling. What is the biggest project for, for many of us, it's the first huge project that you will have undertaken. Obviously some people come from different backgrounds, but in a lot of us that is, it's a huge undertaking and you need skills and that's what's been great since joining the membership. It has been brilliant in terms of. I've been looking more at procrastination than family time, actually. Uh, and I think that sort of stems for one thing, does lead, you know, they connect.

Gilian: But I realized that even though I was on time for things, I was getting a lot more stressed than I needed to be because I hadn't shown compassion and I hadn't broken stuff down. And so that's why I thought with the chance of this, I said actually, if I can use what I've known from joining and actually just being a bit more willing to think about myself, which is uncomfortable, and I don't think I'm probably alone in that. A lot of us don't take time to think about ourselves and give ourselves compassion. Yet we spend quite a lot of time with others, maybe showing them compassion. So I thought actually it would be good to try and, um, yeah, get to know myself a bit better and to try and see that I can get a bit more balance. Yeah. And just make things be better. 

Vikki: Yeah. I love it. And I just wanna reflect that, I want you to recognize that you did take a big compassionate step in joining the membership because accepting that some support would help and accepting that you are worth putting some time into and that you are worth putting a bit of money into.

Vikki: You know, I try and keep it affordable, but it's obviously, it is a financial investment for people. You took that first step of putting yourself back in this picture by taking that step of joining as well, which I think is important to recognize. Often people are like, oh, and now I need to learn how to, you know, put myself forward, look after myself. But you are already doing those things by putting yourself in that sort of a situation. 

Gilian: Yeah, I hadn't really thought of it that way, but yeah. Right. That it's, um, and it's lovely being part of that community as well. I think I was saying, I think I said yesterday to you, in an online thing, I said, I've found my smile again. I didn't realize how much of a rut I'd gotten. And even by being, you know, so by being able to come along to things of the membership, to be part of that community, is massive. Um, all of us trying to kind of make things better and help each other, which is great. 

Vikki: That's always lovely, lovely to hear. And I think you're really, really also insightful to recognize that procrastination and learning to manage that procrastination as you have been this quarter will help with this separation of work and non-work time. I wonder if you could just tell me a little bit more about your thoughts about why managing your procrastination will help with that. 

Gilian: I think because for me, a lot of the tasks that I was procrastinating on were, partially because of not breaking them down. And partially that was as a result of self doubt of wondering whether I was really good enough and, there's always been that thing of, am I, do I deserve to be here? It's not coming from anybody else. There's not anything negative , everything my supervisors have said and others, it's all been positive. So it is just my own self-doubt. However, that would mean if, for example, I had a paper that I needed to finish recently, I delayed starting it because I felt I wasn't good enough to write the paper and why would they want to listen? And it was, through being part of the membership and then looking at procrastination techniques that I actually was able to get started. Once I could get started, then I was able to get it done. Otherwise, before joining the membership, that paper would've been something where I would've still been struggling with it over the weekend when my son would like, you know, isn't at school and that's when it's valuable time to spend together.

Gilian: But actually within the last week I actually did the not worrying about doing your very best in everything because you can't possibly do that and always say setting time limits. And I had a second paper to do it and I thought, I'm not putting it off.

Gilian: And I broke it down and I said to myself, right, I'm gonna spend no longer than six hours working on it. And I actually managed to do it, and get the draft sent to the right people as well ahead of time. And when we talk those intrinsic wins, it felt like an intrinsic win because I hadn't procrastinated, I'd trusted myself and, me prior to joining, that paper wouldn't have been planned. It would've been something just left hanging over me.

Vikki: I love that. And I think that is one massive way that learning how to manage the procrastination is gonna help with this work life thing. Because if you can be more intentional about when you are working and know exactly what you are doing in that slot and know that you've got tools, and now we we're always gonna procrastinate you, you and I know I still procrastinate. Other members still procrastinate. It happens. But if we know we've got tools there that when we notice we're procrastinating, we have ways of addressing it and minimizing the impact. Like we talked at the webinar yesterday about then suddenly we can get work done in the slots we allocate to it. Which as you say, then it makes it much easier to have freer weekends 'cause it hasn't just sort of drift. We haven't put it off and put it off and put it off and drifted it into the weekend.

Gilian: Yeah.

Vikki: I do think there's another way though. So one of the things that we have talked about before in the membership is how procrastination is often about emotion avoidance. And I want you to tell me a little bit more about what emotions you experience when you are doing your PhD, but feel like you should be with your family or when you are with your family, but feel like you should be doing your PhD.

Gilian: For me, it's normally a sense of guilt, so if I'm working on something for the PhD and I know it's past six o'clock or something, I feel that I'm not spending time. With my family and, and being with them. And then if I'm with my family doing something, maybe we're watching a film, there's a sense of guilt creeps in just going, wow, there's still work that could be done. And then maybe depending and possibly slightly dread, as well. Not so much with the family, but with the PhD side of thing of just, there's still so much to do that of which I think is a very common thing for many people to feel at all sorts of stage. But that sense of, um, am I gonna get through this? What if I don't get it done in time? So, um, yeah. So those two kind of come together. 

Vikki: Yeah, because when we are feeling emotions that we don't like, so in this case, guilt and dread and things like that. There's a bunch of things we sort of almost automatically do. One of them is spiral, like you mentioned, that suddenly the guilt becomes, oh my, I'm a terrible mother. They're gonna hate me. Or, or, oh my goodness, I'm never gonna finish my PhD or whatever. It might, we know whichever direction it is. We tend to spiral, but we also tend to then avoid the tasks. Right?

Vikki: Anything that we are having thoughts about that make us feel guilty, we then tend to avoid it. So tell me a bit more about how feeling that guilt or that dread affects your ability to either get on with the work or to enjoy the time with your family. 

Gilian: I think, when it's with the work, I think the dread actually, because it, it's there, it's a distraction, that then slows you down. Um, so whether I'm trying to, um. Do close analysis or whether I'm trying to read secondary things. If you've got a voice in the back of your head going, oh, and if you're trying to look at one text and you think there's another 20 I really should have already looked at, it's actually your own mind is sending you off in directions that you don't need to be in.

Gilian: And then I think when I'm spending time with a family as well, that part of the distraction the other way is that without meaning to sometimes there are con the amount, I've lost count of the amount of times I've been asked. So, you know, what are you gonna do when you finish PhD? Have you not finished yet?

Gilian: When are you gonna get a job, a real job? Those sorts of things. So you've got that with members of family where there's that pressure as well. So you're thinking, well, actually I'm sat here watching a film, but with what you're saying, I, I ought to be going off back to the office and doing some more work because if you are not viewing this as a real job, I need to get a real job and I need to get this done to get a real job. And so it sort of devalues, um, you both need to complete the PhD so there is value in it, but it sort of devalues the process. Yeah. Without meaning to 

Vikki: Yeah. And ruins the time with your family, right? Because suddenly it becomes you're thinking, I shouldn't be doing this, I should be doing something else. And that makes it hard to relax and enjoy the time with them too, I assume. 

Gilian: Yeah. I guess it's just, there's always these constant things just playing on your mind. I suppose, it's like with anything, isn't it? If you go and visit somewhere, but you are aware that you've only got an hour to be there and then you've gotta dash off and you've gotta make a train in time, it just plays on your mind. And it's the same thing of if you are watching a film, and there's also that guilt of, have I done enough? Because if this, if my PhD doesn't count as real work, then do I deserve to watch a film because this, you know, my work isn't worthy. And, you know, films and things and family time. I mean, they're for people who've put in effort. So there's all these sort of, all the bad thoughts going around in circles.

Vikki: Well, let's grab that one. Films are for people who have done enough work. How, how do you feel about that thought? How true does that thought feel to you? 

Gilian: Well see, I, I associate that I have a real difficulty with yeah, feeling that I actually deserve to have free time or spare time, sort of, of, because I see those things as, almost rewards for having, you know, worked hard. Even though being able to spend time with family is, you know, that that should just be part of being healthy, really mentally healthy, having time, whether that's going out walking or playing games or watching tv. I mean, time together is important. You can't just shut yourself off. But sometimes it would be easier, , you know, with guilt that you can make yourself cut off from other people. You realize that you haven't got those connections , because you're pushing people away. So,

Vikki: and these, these deep seated thoughts that you need to have earned rest and earned time with other people and earned fun stuff on your own as well. Right? Because we are gonna talk about that. This is not gonna just be about finding a balance between time with your family and time with your PhD because one of the things you mentioned in your initial email was that actually there's this whole chunk of time, for just you, Gillian, as a person, that isn't happening at the moment.

Vikki: These deep-seated beliefs about when people deserve those things can be really, really hard to shift. Right? That starts getting into kind of therapy territory of where does that come from and how can we unpick it and those things. But what is really useful from a coaching standpoint is to be able to go, I recognize I have these beliefs. They come from somewhere. They're longstanding beliefs. However, I don't have to live my life by them. I can believe in a deep down right in my chest way that I don't deserve rest or that unless I finished what I was gonna do, I don't deserve family time, but cognitively I choose not to reinforce that. Cognitively I choose to follow my plan, which involves rest and family time, regardless of what I've got done. How would that feel? Does that feel possible to separate out for you or does that feel like something that's just way too difficult? 

Gilian: No, I think it does feel possible. I think it wouldn't have been something possible, before I started coming to different coaching things with the membership, to be honest, that I needed, I needed to make those first steps.

Gilian: But, actually I've made the first step of acknowledging it is something that I need to work on, which is a positive thing. Because before joining the membership, I hadn't even thought about the fact that I don't make time for me and I don't make enough time. So it is, you are right Vikki, it is a mixture of both. I don't make clear out time for my son and I don't make any time really for, so if I do make any time, it's not, I don't ever think about just myself, that it's always me doing either the PhD. I see the PhD as time for myself. Except for realistically, I mean, I'm doing it full time.

Gilian: It is the equivalent of a job. And you wouldn't say to somebody else? I wouldn't say to myself if I was back, in my previous profession, I wouldn't have gone, well, I mean even enjoyed teaching all week, but that, that was you time that teaching in the classroom. Hope you really enjoyed that you time, I'm sure it was relaxing.

Gilian: You wouldn't say it. And yet with a PhD, because you get that, well, it's something you're passionate about, it's something you love, which of course we are. It, it's, um, separating that and realizing that actually I need to allow time for me. Because I will be a better researcher, like, because I'll have some balance and actually some space away from things.

Vikki: So i'm gonna pause you on that one just because I don't even want you to reinforce that thought. I don't even want you to reinforce, I deserve time to myself because it will make me a better researcher. I believe, and I would really encourage you to kind of reflect on this. I believe you deserve time to yourself. Full stop. Even if it had no benefits for your research whatsoever. You are a human being and so you deserve time to yourself. Yeah. Because there's something about this weird productivity world that we live in that starts, but you know, you see it with like people who talk about sleep and sleep research and things. You know, Ooh, get good sleep because it'll help you be more, you know, get enough sleep, it'll help you be more productive tomorrow. It's like, no, just, just get enough sleep. 'cause enough sleep's awesome enough. Sleep feels great. Let's do that. Even if I do no more tomorrow than I'm doing today, let's just do it feeling better 'cause I had a good rest. I. And this is why you will know from the membership. But for the listeners, this is why I

Vikki: really discourage you all from setting external rewards and self-care things for after you've done work. So for having a, if I can get this piece of writing done, then I can go for a walk, or if I get this piece of writing done, then I can go for dinner with my friends.

Vikki: Um, I really discourage those sorts of motivators because they firstly make the task itself feel intrinsically like something you've got to bribe yourself to do as though it's got no worth or enjoyment of its own. And it makes those things contingent on having been productive enough. I think you should go for dinner with your friends regardless, I think you should sleep enough regardless. I think you should hang out with your son enough regardless of how much work you've done. And the irony is you probably will end up working more effectively. But that's not the kind of ultimate end goal. The ultimate end goal is to have in your life the things you need in your life to thrive.

Gilian: Yeah. But actually it's about coming out from behind the shadow, you're, more than what you're creating.

Vikki: Hundred percent. Yeah.

Gilian: Yeah. Because I'll still be me, whether I, you know, whether I had a PhD or not. It's still me.

Vikki: So let's get a little bit pragmatic about it now as well. I think we've done some sort of mindset chat, which is always, you know, that I always like to try and bring together both the mindset sety stuff and the kind of pragmatic steps. So. I think this is a little bit of an example. There was an episode that I suspect you will have listened to 'cause you have always listened to the podcast about making half-ass decisions.

Vikki: That often what goes wrong is where we sort of decide something. And it sounds to me, tell me if this feels true for you. It sounds to me like you've only made sort of decisions about when you are working, when you are with your son, when is it okay to drop work for your son? When is it okay to leave son with his grandparents or whatever to so that you can work. So tell me a bit more about how you make those decisions and what kind of boundaries are in place? 

Gilian: See, I think, um, for me that is another challenge. So we, my son and myself, we both live in the same house as my parents. So in terms of. We don't have the separation that some people would have and also my parents both work from home as well. So we've got three adults working different jobs from home in one. So the space is quite a mixed use space. It's more of a workspace than a home space a lot of the time. So there is that difficulty of, um, boundaries. Um, but in terms of, I realized that in terms of practical, I have realized that I didn't have an end of week shutdown process at all. Um, so therefore things were just rolling from one week to the next. So I'd be aware that obviously the week would end and that there'd be the weekend and those sort of typical things that a lot of parents would've to do. So, you know, taking to sporting activities or whatever, way off doing stuff.

Gilian: But there wasn't actually a sense of closure or a sense of recapping of the week. And therefore, if I'm not setting boundaries for myself, then it's not any surprise that, there's not that clarity for my son either and that he's not aware or, or is trying to work out, you know, is mommy available now or am I disturbing, or, you know, so, I'm aware that I need to be working on those sort of boundaries.

Vikki: No, absolutely. And we can think, we'll have a think in a second about what sorts of things that might be, and it doesn't have to be absolutely hard and fast rules. You could decide I never work after six, I never work on weekends. I always go to every sporting event my son ever has or whatever. You can decide those sorts of concrete rules if you want to.

Vikki: But there is also a version where they're kind of rules of thumb. In a normal week, this is what it looks like. However, in these sorts of occasions, there might be a bit more PhD time. In those sorts of occasions, there might be a bit more son time, these sorts of occasions there might be a bit more me time, whatever it is.

Vikki: So we don't have to have hard and fast rules, but when we are not intentional about it, it sort of ends up being a bit of a mush and you end up being disturbable when you thought you were gonna work, but your son comes in and asks for something and you haven't got a good enough reason to say no. So you go with it.

Vikki: And then other times you do just a bit of work in front of the telly or whatever it is, and we end up in this slightly grey mush where nothing feels very sort of intentional or separate from each other. What would make it hard, before we start thinking about the kind of exactly what things you might put in place, what would make it hard or what does make it hard for you to enforce any boundaries?

Gilian: I think in terms of being disturbed, I think I need to have, um, more, uh, sort of a bit more self-compassion and actually be aware that my work does have value. So therefore, if I have blocked out time saying, I am working on this and I need you to be with granny and granddad who are perfectly capable of looking after you, that you need to respect that this is my job and that I'm telling you I need to do this.

Gilian: So I need to have that self value of what I'm doing on one sense , which I know sounds strange when I'm saying I'm working too much, but it is that, that sort of side of things of actually value in what I do. Um, but on the other side , so it is quite tricky because our lounge is also where my parents do their work from as well. So there's not a very, uh, I quite like, like to divide space and it would be quite nice to, to feel that I was finished on the night. But it's quite, can be quite difficult because I'll be going quite often down into a space where somebody else is doing their work as well. So, so boundaries, setting boundaries is quite hard when we all work here. 

Vikki: Your son's at school? 

Gilian: Yes.

Vikki: So you have time, is it PhD time while he's at school?

Gilian: Yes. Yeah. I think as a lot of parents, I think summer holidays are probably the hard, they're both joyous aren't they, but it is six weeks that is, harder when your children are there.

Vikki: I'm gonna suggest we focus in on term times for now. 

Gilian: Yeah. 

Vikki: We can talk in future coaching sessions in the membership and stuff when it comes but I think it's useful. 'Cause sometimes these are the stories I want you to notice. These are the stories where we complicate ourselves. And I do this with exercise. Other people do this with exercise too. It's like, oh, but I couldn't do that in the winter because it will be rainy and it'll be too cold. So to do it, it's like, yeah, but you could do it now through till September. How about that? And then we'll worry about and then do later. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So sometimes these kind of, I need a solution that's gonna work for all eventualities prevent us from finding solutions that work some of the time. So I would think, right, let's not even worry about holidays right now. Holidays are gonna be a mishmash until we come up with a different strategy to think about those. They're gonna be a bit of a mishmash, all working parents experience it. I'm just gonna be super kind to myself, but let's think about term times. So is he at school full-time? 

Gilian: Yes. 

Vikki: Yeah, so you've got the kind of full-time days. Do you find you're able to get on during that time or do you find you're called out for parental duties and stuff with your parents?

Gilian: Yeah so I find that I've managed to get a reasonable pattern 'cause I'm quite an early riser anyways, so I find that I can be up and happily working at quarter past six in the morning because it's quiet and there's no disturbing until about nine o'clock when other people then start to wake up. And I think then I can get disturbed because both of my parents are at home and they can't go to the shops on their own or whatever. So if they need something, there'll be a knock on my office door and then I will go and do that.

Gilian: But generally, yeah, I do manage to get, things done. And I have tried to work on, saying when I'm in meetings or things to, to block out space to not get disturbed.

Vikki: See, this is a fascinating one. I think this is gonna be relevant for people, even if they don't have kids or if they're not living with parents or any of these things is what is different to you? So you told me before we started recording here that you'd got your do not disturb sign. Everyone knew they couldn't come in 'cause you were recording, you were doing this thing. And you've just said also that you tell them when there's meetings and things like that. What to you is different that you are willing to enforce boundaries around i'm on a podcast. I am, you know, getting coached. I am in a meeting. You must not disturb me versus I'm doing an hour's close analysis. You must not disturb me.

Gilian: I think it's, I'm honestly better at saying it if somebody else is involved. I've noticed that. So it would be me saying, don't disturb. I don't disturb because Vikki's kindly giving her time to coach me. There's somebody else. So, it's important that you leave me alone. It's always when this, if it's a group thing, you know, somebody else is giving up their time. Say, let's respect that.

Vikki: So why should your parents, your parents, respect my time who they've never met more than they respect your time. Now, I'm not saying your parents don't respect your time. Let me rephrase that. But why are you willing to put a boundary in place outta respect for my time, rather than putting a boundary in place out of respect for your time?

Gilian: Yeah, I think it is, honestly, it probably just comes down to just lack of trust in what I'm doing. So just thinking, well, I'm, you know, my stuff isn't good enough, as if it doesn't matter as much, and then so I can see when other people are doing things and I think, wow, that, that PhD sounds amazing. That sounds amazing. But I don't see it in my own. I think, oh, that sounds amazing, but mine's just okay. I'm not putting in the boundaries because I'm not respecting what I'm doing enough.

Vikki: And do you want to respect it enough that you can put some boundaries in place? 

Gilian: Yeah, I do. And I actually think that I've started to appreciate what I've been doing more since I've joined the membership. And as you rightly said, I haven't been there that long. So I think it will, it, this is not, it's bit like procrastination will never be fully fixed, but at least this is gonna be a process and starting to build up.

Gilian: I'm not gonna just wave a magic wand and suddenly change my behavior just overnight and go, well, that was perfect but when I can start spotting what I'm doing and then thinking, right, I actually need to set boundaries, then it's a step on the way to actually caring more for myself, which would be a good thing.

Vikki: So definitely, and I think it's another one of those examples where you might not at the moment have the deep seated belief that what you are doing is super valuable and important. I think you do have that belief to some extent, but it may not be a completely like I'm therefore willing to do this, but you can still choose to act as though you did.

Vikki: You can still choose to say, you know what? I have moments where I'm not convinced that what I'm doing is as important as what other people are doing, but it's what I'm doing, so I'm gonna act as though it's as important as anybody else's job. And I think sometimes when we act like that, the belief comes afterwards.

Vikki: You know, usually you'll know we talk about the self-coaching model in the membership. Usually we think about our actions being driven by our thoughts and feelings. So it sort of goes thoughts, feelings, actions. Sometimes if we've got really deep seated beliefs, sometimes we start from the actions. We start from thinking, I want to behave as though my PhD has real value to the world and feel determined.

Vikki: And so your action is that you block in some time where you are not disturbable. Well, my old coach always used to say she had three young children when she was running a business. And she always used to say that if no one's bleeding, you cannot disturb me. So it was like, if anyone's bleeding, it's fine. Come in, come get me, whatever. No one bleeding. It's all good. You can, you can wait till later. Go and ask your father.

Vikki: But sometimes it can be useful to act in line with how we want to believe things are and how we hope our future selves will believe. And we start to act in that line already, even when we're a bit wobbly in here at the moment, about whether it has true, true value that makes it enough to put these boundaries in place.

Gilian: And I could actually see potentially, what was that you were saying about them not wanting to be disturb, but probably with me, it's actually a case of my son's quite self-aware. So actually, probably being able to say if you catch mommy's sneaking, you know, sneak in the old book notebook out and stuff, um, when, when we're supposed to be, when I've said we're gonna play a board game or whatever, well yeah, you have the right to call me out on that because you matter too.

Vikki: And that's where I think being really intentional could be really useful here. But before we talk about, I want, I'm aware we've thrown around the world boundaries quite a bit and people have different definitions of boundaries, and I wanna make sure that you and I are both on the same page with that, but also that anyone listening is, so for you, what do you mean when you talk about a boundary?

Gilian: I think for me, if I talk about in terms of that, it needs to be something where there's a clear understanding of what you are crossing. So if I'm setting a boundary saying I'm working, that there's a clear understanding that if you're gonna disturb me when I'm working, that there's got to be a reasonable reason for you to be doing that.

Gilian: Not just talking about a game of football or something random. So, yeah, it's about something where both sides, well, I, that, you know, both sides of something, but yeah, boundary is a really tricky word, doesn't it? Because it can mean a lot things, 

Vikki: And I'm really glad we had that conversation because I wanna tweak a bit of your definition, if that's okay. Which is, for me, a boundary is something you put in place about what you will do. 'cause even your child you don't have control over what he does. As much as parents would love to have full control over what their kids do, you don't, you don't have control over what your parents do. You don't have control over what anybody does.

Vikki: You have control over what you do. So in this case, a boundary would be something like, if you disturb me when the sign on my door says don't, for example, if you're gonna go with signs or whatever, I will just ask you to leave and carry on with my work. I'll give you a kiss on the head and you can go and carry on with what you were doing. Because this is mommy's work time, I won't have a conversation with you unless you're bleeding. I will dismiss you and get back to my work immediately. So it is not, you can make requests to the people around you. So you can say to your son, to your family to say, you know, when it says this on my door, please, it would really help me if you don't test my willpower with all of this. It would really help if you didn't. But the boundary is you saying if you come in, I'm not engaging, I'm not going to the shop while I'm on one of those sessions. Shop's for later. I'll do it one later, but in these blocks of time, I won't engage with what you're asking me to do. And you can do that in a super loving way. It's not like not talking to you, please leave. But it's saying I'm in a session right now. I can't. Same as you would if somebody came in now. I mean, I would be understanding, but I'm gonna assume if somebody came in now, you'd be like, shut out. I'll talk to you later. You can do the same thing when it's your work.

Gilian: Yeah. So yeah, it's about deciding and setting those boundaries for, for me. Yeah, that makes sense.

Vikki: And that can be in both directions, right? It can also be, if I'm in time I've set aside to be with my family, I'm not going to pick up my PhD. I'm not going to also just have a quick scroll to look up something that I've just thought of or whatever. But it's always about your behavior.

Gilian: Yeah, that makes sense.

Vikki: So how could you be more intentional? So this kind of fits also with the role-based time blocking stuff that we've talked about. There's an episode about it, if people wanna check that out. How do you want to be more intentional? How could you be more intentional about when you are in phD role when you are in mom role, when you're in daughter role, and when you are in human being, individual person role? 

Gilian: I think that you're quite right. Time blocking is something that I've started looking at, but it's not something that I've had too much chance to work with. But I have found that when I've done the time blocking that it is easier for me to make boundaries, with the procrastination, working on procrastination because, even the sense of a boundary of, no, no, you cannot wander off and go and Hoover because that would be easier. You've gotta just stay put, you know, um, and get going. It's gotta be the same sort of thing that if I'm in boss mode when I'm working out my week, that I actually block out family time.

Gilian: And I think that's what I haven't done is blocked out the time that you actually need to just have that self-care, it needs to be a mixture, mixture of self-care and family time, because I think I'm not alone in that. Um, I've only since joining the membership started thinking about putting in proper breaks in the day.

Gilian: And I think I'm not alone in that. I haven't sort of thought to myself, right, well let's set aside this chunk of the evening. This is the equivalent of it being blocked out rather than for meetings, but this is blocked out for me to just step away and do family time or at some point hopefully, I dunno, okay, maybe I'd like to go and, you know, go see friends or something, but that I can make the choice.

Vikki: I don't want it be, we're gonna talk about this. I don't even want it to be go see friends. Go see friends will be lovely. We're gonna talk about, what would it be if it was literally just you, something that is just you.

Gilian: I dunno what I'd do if it was, I'm not sure I can get there yet. 

Vikki: What did you used to enjoy doing? Pred kids, maybe even as a kid yourself. What hobbies and things did you love doing?

Gilian: I like gonna the theater and I like gonna museums and art galleries and things like that, so. 

Vikki: Okay. How far away is your nearest museum or gallery?

Gilian: Oh, about, well there are local ones to do with planes and things, but more traditional ones about 45 minutes, I think, to the nearest one from here.

Vikki: Cool. And when did you last do something like that?

Gilian: I, no, um, since, well, my son's 10, so since before he was born, so. 

Vikki: And how about things at home? Are there any sort of do at home hobbies? You like or used to like or would love to get into but haven't done?

Gilian: Um, because really for me, I, I really obviously enjoy reading because of the, the nature of, I do a literature degree, but honestly, by the time I finished reading for the day , it's not something that I have the energy for. I cook sometimes yeah, that's one of the things I like to do if I'm avoiding doing stuff.

Vikki: Okay. So, and is that for you or is that for other people?

Gilian: Um, if I cook it, so I cook for family.

Vikki: So even if you enjoy it, that still doesn't count. This is gonna be one of your bits of homework and because you're a member, I'm gonna follow up, is to think about, you know, what do you, are you on social media or anything? One of the things I often ask myself is, what do I look at on social media? 

Gilian: No. See, I, I'm actually one of the lucky ones where I don't really scroll. I'm not, I'm perfect. 

Vikki: Don't, don't start right. Not gonna use that for inspo. I want you to think, and I want everyone listening to think of this, I want you to have one thing that you like doing if you go off somewhere on your own, like if you are looking for sort of day trip or morning trip type thing, and one thing you like doing, if you're just at home on your own in the house, okay?

Vikki: And if there aren't answers to things, that is partly why you are not making time for this. It's partly some of these beliefs about not deserving it, but it is partly that it's really hard to make time for yourself if you don't actually know what you're gonna use that time for.

Vikki: Yeah. And so the, one of the first steps is thinking even if there haven't been things in the past, thinking what would be fun. I might learn to juggle, I might learn to do Rubik's cube, I might learn to paint, I might, whatever it might be. Okay. I might go for walks. I might look at birds, see how many birds I can find in my garden or whatever.

Vikki: Right? Coming up with an idea as to what it might be and doesn't have, you haven't gotta pick a hobby forever. That's not what I'm saying, 

Vikki: but like picking some, if I was gonna take some time for myself over the next couple of weeks, it'd be fun. What? What? Might it be fun to have a go at trying?

Gilian: I might try looking at some videos to do with sign language. Because it's something that I could reasonably because we're not fully out in the sticks here, but it's not the, whilst I enjoy going to museums and things, it's not the easiest to get to stuff. Yeah. But, videos, there are videos to do with sign language and it's something that I've always been interested in. So it's something that I can have a look and try. So, 

Vikki: perfect. I went to this, it's called Camp Wildfire. Recommend. It's basically Adventure Camp for adults. And I did sign language choir. It was so cool. We learned the signs to sing, um, stronger by Christina Aguilera and it was amazing. It was so cool. It becomes so much easier. It's all the part of this intentional thing. And people often think that being intentional is about always being productive and being efficient. And it's not. You can be intentional about your hobbies. It's so much easier, like you said about seeing your friends. I want you also after we finish recording, to think of one friend that you want to catch up with, one specific one because it's one thing to say, oh, I should see my friends more, or to say, I want to go for coffee with her. Yeah. The more specific you can get about what making time for yourself would look like, the easier it is to then schedule it and then to say, look, son's at football or whatever. I'm gonna have coffee with that one friend. Well, I'm not gonna stay and watch this time, love staying to watch, but I'm gonna take 45 minutes to go do that. Now I know the logistics of that might not work out, but. take the principle of it. 

Gilian: If you've got something concrete that you're planning to do, then you can put it in rather than just so vague that you can put off.

Vikki: Yes, exactly. Exactly. How could you then share some of this intentionality with the people around you? Because this is gonna be a bit of a change for them, right? If they're used to being able to come and go, mom always being available, daughter always being available, whatever is gonna be a little bit of a change and people react to that. Right. And one of the things we can do is to try and be as transparent as we can or as we're willing to about why you are doing it and what it actually means. And I'm just wondering whether you got any ideas.

Gilian: I think in terms of not working as much on the weekends, I think because it's been impacting on my son, but also means for the sake of whatever has or hasn't been done, I still deserve a break. Everyone needs a break. That probably just an open conversation saying I'm actually going to be working hard on taking a break.

Gilian: So if you see me, you know, sneaking, going and grabbing my laptop and scrolling, clearly looking at work stuff. You know it because I only, if I have my laptop, I'm doing university stuff, so if you see me sneaking for that then you are allowed to,

Vikki: don't put too much responsibility on them. This is still your behaviour mission ok? You can ask for support.

Gilian: Yeah. Probably stuff outta the way.

Vikki: Yeah. Explaining to them why you're doing what you're doing. . I was wondering about whether, whether you could almost have a clear timetable, and I don't mean, when people talk about time blocking, they think they then have to time block all the hours and I, I think that's a really dangerous place to start.

Vikki: I think starting with some time blocks is really useful and being able to say, right in these two hours a day or these three hours a day, please just don't bother me. In the afternoon. I'm more flexible. I'll be doing stuff, but I'm more interruptible. If you need me to go to the shop, that's when I'll go to the shop and stuff. But between eight and 11, please, just unless there's an emergency, let me crack on or whatever.

Vikki: And saying to your son, then, you know, but look at this. This five till seven slot. Five till seven is all you. All you. Mommy will have finished work by five and it's whatever we want to do together. That's our time.

Vikki: So that you're not saying to him, leave me alone. I'm working. Leave me alone. I'm working. You are saying, no, no. Remember, this is mommy's work slot because five till seven's you. Five till seven is all about you and we, yeah. So whatever you wanna tell me, I'm gonna hear all about it. Tell me everything. Everything you've got between five and seven. So that they can kind of see these are the times when I'm interruptable to go and do jobs for the parents. These are the times that I'm proper set aside for fun, social wonderfulness. Here's some grey time that I'll work, but I don't care if you come in and these are my deep focus hours that please just let me have.

Gilian: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, because I completely agree with you, with blocking that I could end up wasting a lot of my weekend trying to micromanage myself, but actually saying generally, you know, leave between six and nine and then between sort of two and four and unless there's an actually actual emergency, then yeah, please treat me as if I'm not here.

Vikki: And, weekends. Remember, you don't have to be black and white, all or nothing about weekends either. So I always recommend that people are intending to get to a place where they only work on weekends in proper push to deadlines and stuff. I know that's not always possible if people are part-time and things, but if you are used to your weekends being a kind of extension of your week, it might be a lot to go from that to, I do not work between Friday and Monday, but you can choose intentionally about each weekend as well.

Vikki: So one of the things that I've really developed in myself and has helped me a lot is that now if I need to work on the weekend, I will say to my husband, I'm gonna work this weekend. Saturday morning, I'm in the study that I'm doing my thing. And then we'll have the rest of the weekend to not do it.

Vikki: So I used to sort of be like, oh, I need to do some work this weekend, but not now. I'll do it later, I'll do it later, I'll do it later. I should really be working, but I'm not. And then it's sort of the weekend becomes this kind of half-assed thing where you are neither working nor doing fun things. Whereas if you can say in advance, okay, it's not ideal, but I do want to do some work this weekend. I need to do two hours or I need to do four hours or whatever. I'm gonna try and do it in that block, which means the rest of the weekend is free for all the other fun stuff. So even in that, you can be super intentional about it.

Gilian: And I think the things have been working on, you've been coaching on the procrastination.

Gilian: That those then dovetail in because if there is something that genuinely needs to be done or maybe meetings from across the globe that happen to be on a week of, but they usually only one to two hours. So that doesn't give me the excuse of going, well, I mean that's, that's one hour, but I mean, I could just go and do an extra hour.

Vikki: So it's basically a work day now, sorry.

Gilian: Um, and I need to not allow myself to, to opt out quite so easily, so I need to be better with the boundaries and actually write that is, I have, that is blocked into there. That will be how long I'm allowing for it. And then the other time is weekend and step away. Yeah.

Vikki: Perfect. So the last thing I wanna ask you is what thoughts could you kind of cultivate, choose, and remind yourself of for those moments where your brain is going, "oh, I probably should go and spend some time with my son", or, "oh, but I probably should go and do my PhD." What thought? 'cause we can kind of preload those, right?

Vikki: Because we know these moments are gonna happen. You are gonna go away from this hopefully feeling like, yeah, I've got a plan. This is great, but we all know that a week down the line, or even sooner, at some point you're gonna be like, "oh, I know, but he, you know, he's, he didn't have a good day at school. He just needs some mummy time."

Vikki: Whatever. Right. What thoughts can we preload in your head that you are going to use in the moments that kind of make you go, oh, maybe I not gonna stick to my boundary. 

Gilian: Yeah, I think if it's, maybe if it's a case of about not being disturbed that maybe I need to, say to myself, it doesn't matter what other people are doing for their PhDs or not doing, you are here, you are doing it. Enjoy it. Yeah, remember that you're here, here, that you are here, enjoy it. Make the most of it. So you know, it does have value. 

Vikki: I'm doing this for a reason. My PhD has value. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Gilian: And so, and then when it's the other way around, you know, when it's family time, if it's creeping in, just tell myself, I'm more than a PhD and that. I'll still be there whether it does or doesn't get done. Yeah. And that family matters as well and I matter. So, you know, doesn't matter whether I've got that chapter finished or not got that chapter finished, but we all deserve that time. We deserve that time to be happy and to be doing what we want to do regardless of whether you've had a great PhD day or not, it's life is still there. So. 

Vikki: Perfect. I love that and I look forward to continuing to support you through it in the rest of the coaching sessions in the membership. So thank you so much for coming on, Gillian. I hope that was useful and what you wanted it to be.

Gilian: Oh, it was brilliant. Thank you so much Vikki. It's given me a lot to think about and, um, yeah, really excited to try some different things.

Vikki: Definitely, and I'm sure it will have inspired lots of people who are in similar situations themselves. So thank you everyone for listening .

Thank you for listening to the PhD Life Coach podcast. If you like this episode, please tell your friends, your colleagues, and your universities. I'd appreciate it if you took the time to like leave a review, give me stars, stickers, and all that general approval as well. If you'd like to find out more about working with me, either for yourself or for people at your university, please check out my website at the PhD life coach com.

You can also sign up to hear more about my free group coaching sessions for PhD students and academics time.