4.38 How to get through the next steps post-thesis submission (A double coaching episode!)

Handing in our thesis can be such a pivotal moment that we can forget there is more to do afterwards! In this double coaching episode, I chat with Lekhana and Lena who are both post-submission about the new challenges that they are facing. Lekhana discusses how the wait for her viva is affecting her motivation, whereas Lena (who is post-viva) describes the difficulties of getting changes done while navigating the transition out of academia. Hear as we coach through these common challenges - even if you’re a long way from this submission period, there’s a lot to learn! 

If you liked this episode, you should check out my episode on how to prepare for your viva.

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I'm Dr Vikki Wright, ex-Professor and certified life coach and I help everyone from PhD students to full Professors to get a bit less overwhelmed and thrive in academia. Please make sure you subscribe, and I would love it if you could find time to rate, review and tell your friends! You can send them this universal link that will work whatever the podcast app they use. http://pod.link/1650551306?i=1000695434464

I also host a free online community for academics at every level. You can sign up on my website, The PhD Life Coach. com - you'll receive regular emails with helpful tips and access to free online group coaching every single month! Come join and get the support you need.

Transcript

Vikki: Hello, and welcome to the PhD Life Coach Podcast, and we are back with another special double coaching episode, this time thinking about a part of the PhD journey that we often don't talk about.

Vikki: So all those of you who are PhD students who are trying to write your thesis at the moment, trying to collect your data, all of those things, your end goal is normally that hand-in moment when you finally have the big document. I'm holding it in my hands if you can see me on YouTube , except usually now it's just pressing a button to submit online. It's not quite as dramatic as handing over a document, but we're all sort of aiming towards that moment where we hand in.

Vikki: Well, today I have with me two ex-members of the PhD Life Coach membership who are both past that moment. They've both handed in their thesis. They're at different stages. I'll get them to tell you about that in a second. But we're gonna be thinking about the challenges and experiences that come up post hand-in for PhD students, and what we can do about that. So welcome. Do you guys want to introduce yourselves to everyone?

Lekhana: Hi. I'm Lekhena, and I'm a PhD student in, based in Sydney, Australia, and I handed in my thesis a couple of months ago, and right now I'm in the stage of waiting for my viva to be scheduled.

Vikki: Perfect. 

Lena: Hi, I'm Lena I'm a PhD student as well. I'm based in London, but I was in Brighton for most of my PhD and I did my viva back in February. Passed the viva, some minor corrections, so I'm now trying to go through and address the corrections to be able to submit it for the final, final time. 

Vikki: Perfect. So we have two different stages. And they're both people who have been involved in sort of my coaching world in the run-up to their vivas. And now we're gonna think about how it's going for them now. So if you've listened to these double-coaching episodes before, you will know how this goes, but for anybody else, what we're gonna do, I'm gonna ask Lena to turn off her camera, and I'm gonna talk with Lekhna first. We're gonna coach, and then we'll get Lena back on. It's a little bit like we do in our live coaching sessions where you get to watch other people getting coached.

Vikki: So once I have coached Lekhna, Lena will come back on again and let me know what things that she's drawn out of listening to Lekhna being coached, and then we'll swap over and do it the other way around. So you'll get to hear not only people being coached, but also people responding to being coached. So yeah, Lena, I will see you in a few minutes. Okay. Hey, Lekhana. Hello. So First of all, congratulations on handing in. It's so exciting- Thank you ... to see people on the other side of this. How did it feel to do that?

Lekhana: It was, it was a huge relief, honestly. It, it, I remember, like, I fell asleep, like, aft- right after submitting. You know, you can see the difference between when you sleep because you need to rest, and then there is this, like, huge relief and you can, you just know you don't have to set an alarm to wake up or anything.

Lekhana: So that was quite exciting for me the first week after I handed in my thesis and then started slowly building a routine around my free time. And yeah, it's been a huge change since then. But yeah, exciting. 

Vikki: Amazing. And I'm gonna actually ... I didn't warn you guys this. I'm gonna make you guys do something that probably won't come as a surprise 'cause we do it in the membership quite a bit. Tell me what you're proud of yourself for, for having handed in when you did. 

Lekhana: I think the last, about, like, six weeks, but just before I handed in my thesis was when I was able to entirely focus just on the thesis without having to do anything else, and I actually f- felt like You know, previously I did not have this whole mindset of being, staying focused on one issue.

Lekhana: And- I would, like, really drift off and then be like, "Oh, I'm gonna have lunch and then come back to this," or anything. All of that, I, I just set everything else aside and I was able to work through with my, you know, uh, all of these, uh, procrastination and, like, any of these worries. Like, "Oh, my God. Okay, my thesis is gonna be really bad."

Lekhana: And, you know, all of those kinds of thoughts I was able to, like, box them up and set them aside and just get my work done. Um, I think I- proudest, of course, it's been about handing in my thesis most, that's been the top, uh, top of the list. But otherwise, I think it's, I am honestly really proud of how I handled my thoughts and, like, all of these issues that, that were coming up, which- was slowing me down quite a bit leading up to the months before my submission. And that was, that's something that I think I'm really proud of. 

Vikki: Yeah. I love that. I love that you're proud not only of the actual thing that you did and that you achieved, but also how you supported yourself to do that. That's huge. And the reason I ask that is, and Lena, I'm gonna ask you as well, and so you can start thinking, the reason I ask is because often what happens, and you'll see this in the membership sessions, right? That when you're hand-in, you think, "Right, this is the stressful bit. This is the hard bit. Once I'm handed in, you know, that's gonna be amazing. I'm gonna be so proud. I'm not gonna feel like an imposter anymore 'cause I finished," da da da. And then the second we get there, so often if we don't do it intentionally, it's like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I handed in, but now the problem is surviving the viva.

Vikki: That was you know, that was no big deal. You know, just handed in." Yeah. "There was a deadline, I had to," and whatever. And now this is it. And we never allow ourselves to have that moment where we stop and go, "No, no. Hang on. I might not have done the next thing yet, but I have done that thing that I was working hard for for years and years- and that I was really, really worried about." So just taking that moment to go, "I'm really proud of myself. I'm so chuffed," and getting specific about it, what exactly you overcame, what you did to overcome it. Love that. So that's why I wanted to take that moment with you. And it's always nice, I always love to see members handing in. It's super exciting. So how are you feeling about the upcoming viva? What's challenging for you at the moment?

Lekhana: Well, I mean, I don't know when my viva is actually coming up because my university still hasn't really set a date on it. And it has been a really long wait for me, and I'm not really sure what's going on. So that's something that's making me really anxious on one side. Yeah, just the wait itself is making me anxious. Not even taking going the next step of thinking, like, what will the feedback really look like? For the first about, like, five to six weeks that's something that I constantly had in mind. What if the examiners don't like it? Or like, you know, what if they say that it's the worst thing I've ever read, and things like that. But then it's come to a point now where I'm like, "Okay, what is really going on? Why have I not heard anything?" And it's been about four months since I handed in exactly. And, that's really long, to not have heard anything. So, the anxiety's of course building up, but there have been other things that are keeping me busy, which is sort of helping me get my mind off of constantly thinking about my examination and stuff. But on the other hand, I've also, you know, in our university we do have this option of, writing a thesis with pub- that includes publications. And, um, which is, which was the route that I chose back when I started. Um, one of the things that has been, like, keeping me so low on motivation is that the papers that I've handed into journals, the turnaround time has been extremely slow which is really, like, sucking out all of the motivation from me.

Lekhana: And the more I try to do other things like, you know, my current casual job that I have- or like whether it's even going to the gym on a regular basis, It's okay if it's getting my mind off of all of these spiraling about, like, my exam, I'll just do that rather than do this.

Lekhana: So that's something that's been happening, and it's either I'm spiraling, sitting by myself spiraling about all of these things and not getting anything actually done- or I'm doing all of these other activities that are just my ways of exploring what could possibly motivate me to come back into this and, you know, try a different approach.

Vikki: Okay. Perfect. Lots for us to talk about. This is good stuff. So one of the things I noticed, and obviously you've been in coaching for a while, so, this is a sort of slightly higher level concept, um, is there were two or three occasions, the way you described it, where you really outsourced your emotions.

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: Where the anxiety was because of the delay. The lack of motivation was because they were so slow. Okay? And one of the things I want us to try and understand a little bit more is what are the thoughts you're having- that are causing those emotions? Because if you remember back to our self-coaching model, and I'm gonna talk it through for everybody listening. I know this'll be revision for you and Lena. But for everybody listening, we have our circumstances, which are the neutral facts of the situation. In this case, let's say the, "I don't know where my viva is." Okay? 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: That's the circumstance. You just don't know. It's a fact, okay? Then we have the thoughts we have about that fact. Then we have our emotions, and at the moment, your emotions are that you're feeling anxious. 

Lekhana: Yeah 

Vikki: Okay? So the two things I want us to figure out is what thoughts are making you feel anxious, 'cause it's not the circumstance of not knowing when your viva is. There's a thought going on here that's causing that anxiety. And then I want us to also think what consequence that anxiety's having for you. We've already heard about spiraling, but we'll think more about that. And the reason I wanna try and stretch it out into this self-coaching model, partly it's useful for the listeners to hear us develop this and see how it works in action, but for you it's so that we can better understand where these emotions are coming from, and therefore take some power over them. And better understand the consequences of them so that we can decide what choices there might be to make here. Okay? 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: Cool. 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: So when you think about the fact that your viva isn't booked yet- what thoughts make you feel anxious? 

Lekhana: Yeah, the first thing that obviously comes to my mind is, like, what will my examiners really have to say about my thesis? Because the final few weeks were actually a bit chaotic, and I was trying to speed things up, but I could not keep up with that. And towards the end, I couldn't really get, like, a detailed feedback that I normally would get for any of my writings.

Vikki: Let's say it as a sentence rather than a question. So rather than- what will they say, what are you worried they'll say? 

Lekhana: That there may be major revisions or- that I haven't really e- expressed myself clearly, in those chapters or that, you know, nothing really makes sense. That's, like, the worst thing. And also there, uh, there, there is this possibility of them saying, like, "Okay, this is not really good enough for a, for a PhD." Every single thought that I have is, like, getting worse. Yeah. And then the other side of things is, is that I'm an international student here, and- You know, all of the other issues that come attached with it, like I have very limited time left to be here in this country, and then I would ideally prefer to have all of, you know, uh, my examinations done, and also, you know, wrap up my revisions before my time's up over here. So that's something that's making me anxious.

Vikki: So a lot of it is not so much around the fact that it's not booked yet, but more just anxiety about what the examiners are gonna say, whether they're gonna tell you that it's, that nothing really makes sense, in your words. 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: Um, okay. And then the other part of it is this uncertainty about timeline that comes a lot from you being an international student. 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: Yeah? Okay. Perfect. So one of the things I want everyone to notice is when we ask ourselves, "Hang on. What thought is actually making me anxious here?" You get a much more nuanced response. So rather than, like, being, "I'm anxious because I don't know where my viva is," we're anxious 'cause you're worried about what your examiners are gonna say, and we're anxious because of the timeline in relation to your visa and that sort of thing.

Vikki: Yeah. Yeah? Then suddenly, even that, even without thinking about what actions you take when you're anxious, et cetera, et cetera, even just better understanding that gives us some power to start attacking these things, right? It gives us from here, it's like, "Oh, okay. Right. It's partly a visa thing. It's partly a worried about what examiners thing. Right. What do I want to do or say or think about each of these things?" Because I'm now understanding a little bit more specifically what it is that's wrong. I'm gonna give you a really weird example of this. Well, and I can't remember whether I ever talked about this on the podcast before.

Vikki: When I was little, like five or six, I was walking to school, and I remember this so vividly. I was walking to school, and I didn't wanna go to school, and I was telling my mum I didn't wanna go to school, and she couldn't work out. I love school. She was like, "What is happening?" So she couldn't reassure me, 'cause she didn't know what the problem was. I just didn't wanna go to school, didn't wanna go to school, didn't wanna go to school. Anyway, she kept asking what exactly was wrong, and it was the I'd had a boiled egg for breakfast, and I'd eaten a bit of the shell by mistake, and I was worried it was gonna make my tummy poorly. I felt absolutely fine, but I was really worried that having swallowed this piece of shell, it was going to make me poorly, and so I didn't think I should be at school.

Vikki: I thought I should be with my mum. And once she knew that, she was able to specifically reassure me. She was able to reassure me, "No, a tiny bit of shell is not gonna make a difference. Don't worry. It will come out the other end. You'll never notice. It's all good," da, da, da. And then I was fine again, because she was able to give me specific reassurance to the specific issue that I was having rather than a generalized, "Oh, you'll be fine, you'll be fine," kind of thing. Yeah. Okay? So I'm not even gonna go into... I can get... We already know your anxiety's making you spiral. When you spiral, you're doing less constructive things, I'm sure. So we don't need to go all the way down the model particularly.

Vikki: Let's look at the two things in particular. So this notion my examiners might give me major revisions because nothing really makes sense. 

Lekhana: Mm-hmm. 

Vikki: Does that feel true to you at the moment?

Lekhana: I I think, um, uh, partly, like I'm... I feel comforted, because three of my major chapters which, like, highlight some of my really important findings have been with journals and, I've received some, um, revisions for those and then the fact that those weren't really desk rejected give me a bit of assurance.

Vikki: Yeah. Okay. So it's not true that the whole thing doesn't make sense. 

Lekhana: No, no. '

Vikki: Cause there's at least two, probably three chunks- 

Lekhana: Yeah ... 

Vikki: that are in pretty good shape. 

Lekhana: Yes. Yes. 

Vikki: Okay. 

Lekhana: And the fact that that gives me a bit of a reassurance that, okay, maybe I may not be entirely wrong. Um, but on the other hand, the other chapters, like the primarily, like, you know, my introduction and conclusion- which I work towards to more closely- towards the end of my submission, uh, closer to my submission dates, is when I couldn't really get, like, detailed feedback from my supervisors. 

Vikki: Yeah. Okay. 

Lekhana: And those are the bits that really worry me because- when I was thinking about what I want to talk to you today, I was also looking back at when all of the times that I've procrastinated before and, like, where I've really felt low on motivation has been, I've been extremely dependent on these external situations for, you know, either for validation or, like, you know, to just get some- sort of positive news. And right now I am in that phase where there is no feedback that I need to get from my supervisors in any way until my examiners share their comments about my thesis. But unless that happens, there is nothing really for me to work on. And it's, it's just, things that I'm procrastinating on are, like, okay, if I'm, if I need to look for jobs, okay, I, I wait until, like, literally the last three or four days to start really, stay focused on applications. And this happened with one of my other journal articles as well, where I had to send in the revisions, and it just took me so long. Like, I did not pr- wait until the last minute, but then every day I was able to work less and less, and I was able to, like- Okay ... I wasn't really being productive.

Vikki: So I wanna see how these are all, 'cause we're now talking about procrastinating job application. I wanna see how these are all connected up. So you're feeling anxious because you're telling yourself that your examiners might give you major revisions, and that nothing really makes sense. And when you've looked at that with a kind of a fair boss hat on, you're saying, "Well, it's probably not true that nothing makes sense. At least my, three of my main chapters are in pretty good shape. Maybe the intro and discussion, not quite so much." Before we think about what is, what we're procrastinating from, I wanna think more about- Why is the thought, "My examiners will give me major revisions," why is that such an anxiety-inducing thought?

Lekhana: I guess it's also, you know, it has taken me so long, and I had to get an extension on my submission of my thesis. The fact that I... It has taken so long, I, I, to this day, I really cannot sit with my thoughts when I think about, like, how long this has taken me- and what all it took to actually get this thesis done, other than the last, like, maybe six months. You know, there has been a lot of effort. 

Lena: Mm. 

Lekhana: It's... It just feels like, um, if I get any kind of negative remarks on it, I mean, negative as in, like, critiques, I'm happy to handle. But if it goes to the point of them saying, like, "Okay, this chapter is, like, I just need to throw this out" , it comes to a point where, all of the work that I've done just completely feels invalidated and it's just trash.

Vikki: Okay. So you said, "It feels like..." I'm gonna change that to, "I'm telling myself that if I get major- critiques on any of this-" Yeah ... "all my work is invalidated." Yeah. Is that true?

Lekhana: Uh, I mean, yeah, that, that's something that comes up in my mind. I mean, I don't know if- But does it- It's, it's always ... 

Vikki: when you stop and look at it, is it true that if you get major critiques on your introduction, let's say- that it invalidates all the papers you've written?

Lekhana: On some levels, yes, because, you know, as I mentioned, the journals have been so slow with their turnaround that it, it does worry me a little bit. Somewhere, it, it just, um, it, it's, it just feels like everything has been so stagnant for so long with me. I'm trying to produce work, but then when I get it somewhere, let's say if, you know, one of the, the first paper that I submit was back in 2023.

Lekhana: And it's 2026 May, and you know, you can imagine the amount of weight that's gone into this. And the second one was in 2024, and then I've been constantly getting desk rejections for that paper. And yeah, the third and the fourth one somehow weren't really desk rejected in the first instance, but I got some revisions, and it's been, like, the, I, like, somewhere I feel as though those are- It, it just feels like, because I haven't really had anything that says, "Okay, we accept your publication." The journal, like, is going to, you know, it- it's, it's gonna be out there. It feels like things have been stagnant for so long. 

Lekhana: And now to add to that with my viva not getting scheduled for four months, that has, like added on, you know, it just piles up with all of these things that have been building up for, like, three years so far. So yeah, it, this whole stagnant situation is something that's, uh, giving, making me tell, tell myself all of these things and putting me in this huge negative spiral. 

Vikki: Yeah. Which is understandable, right? 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: And your supervisors have said, and it certainly reflects my experience, that the journal system is kind of broken at the moment. People don't have time to do reviews. People are more likely to decline reviews. It's very hard to get people to do reviews. Lots of very diligent people try to do them, but then it takes them ages 'cause they're trying to do it effectively. It's really, really common, and I know that doesn't make it better. It is a massive problem in the industry. It's interesting then, though, when that becomes something that sort of, you know, like stagnant waters, that, that sort of then pollutes everything else. 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: It's hard to have this sense of progress when that bit of it is moving so slowly. 

Lekhana: Yeah. Yeah.

Vikki: So if we're in that context, where this is not necessarily a marker of the quality of your work- but a marker of the, kind of, um, what's the word? The, like, the state of the sector, I guess. 

Lekhana: Mm-hmm. 

Vikki: How do you want to treat yourself while you're waiting? 

Lekhana: I try and be kind to myself. I don't say anything that's, um, you know, I do acknowledge all of these thoughts that come, come up in my mind, but then there is also this part of my brain that says, like, "Okay, that's not the reality.

Lekhana: That's not, you haven't seen that email that says all of these things." So face the real situation right now. What's in front of you, and then try and- Try and work with whatever you can. Do something constructive with what you can. Yeah, that's, that's one side of my brain that's keeping me going. Which is also one of the reasons why I try and keep, keep myself busy by doing all of these other bits.

Lekhana: On the one hand, like, I end up going to this huge spiral and also the other side a, a third part is also that, like, I've never been good at planning any- for anything. Even if I do plan, it's been for a very short-term, on a very short-term basis. What if I'm under... What if I actually mess up this whole planning in my mind and I can't really plan for anything or let's just focus on the viva and, you know, like, I can't really plan for anything unless I have my examiner's feedback with me. And what if that feedback actually, again, you know, when I mess up with the planning situation of that, and then with all of these other I do get into this vicious circle

Vikki: so many what-ifs, right? What if this happens? What if that happens? What if this throws me off? What's interesting is if you don't think you're good at long-term planning- at the moment, do we need to do much long-term planning? 

Lekhana: Not long-term, but at least I need to- Have at least a vague plan in terms of what I will be doing. I mean, you know, for the bigger picture is that I know that I want to be in academia. I want to continue this, I want to continue working in academia. That's something that I know for sure. How am I gonna make this happen is something- again, you know, that's the one step behind that.

Lekhana: And yeah, like the other side of which is where I need to like start looking for jobs and then start applying for jobs and how things might work out. But then I'm also think there aren't as many jobs but then, you know, when I start working on those applications, let's say about a week before the submission date- all of these thoughts again come to mind. Like, what if the fact that I still haven't had my viva makes my application weak? What if all of this actually slows down my career? And what if I get major revisions and I actually do get a job? Or like, if I actually do get an interview, and then what if I have major revisions and that actually like affects my- future prospects?

Vikki: I just want you to notice how many what ifs there are here. 

Lekhana: Yeah, yeah. 

Vikki: So many. And that's really common, right? When we're in these uncertain situations, what if this and what if that and what if this and what if that? And I think sometimes we ask ourselves those questions because we feel like if I could just predict all the things that might happen and have an answer to them, then I'd feel so much better. But we so rarely actually stop to answer the questions. So I want us just to slow down a little bit, okay? And say, what if you do get major revisions? Maybe you will. I have no idea. What happens if you get major revisions? 

Lekhana: I have to revise. That's probably the only way out. 

Vikki: We do, we do revisions. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. And what if having to wait to do your viva and not having your PhD, what if that does adversely affect your job applications at the moment?

Lekhana: Well, yeah, this is, this is where the biggest what if comes in, right? Like, because, I am dealing with something that's absolutely not in my control. At least, you know, Even if I do get, like, lots of questions that I need to answer in my viva, which I'm maybe able to handle that better than I don't know how many jobs are gonna open up in, for my niche research interest in the future. That's something that's not in my control at all. So- 

Vikki: So what is in your control? Because you said you don't know how many jobs will come up. And you said, "What if this adversely affects me?" That's not in my control. Yeah. But when it comes to applying for jobs, what is in your control at the moment? 

Lekhana: Right now, the ones that I do notice, I have to give in my 100% and do my best with the application that I'm working on. So that's literally the only thing in my control. Yeah, I wouldn't know what, how my viva is gonna be, what my revisions are gonna be like, or, like, how many jobs are coming up in the future. So, yeah. 

Vikki: And you don't know how they will perceive someone who's post hand-in, pre-viva in an interview. Sometimes if they've got tons of people, that might be something they use to screen out. "We're only gonna look at people who have already done their viva or have already done their corrections." They might. I'm not gonna lie. Other times, though, they don't. Other times they'll say, "You know what? Actually, we're gonna go on fit first, and then of the people who are the 10 best fit or whatever, we'll wait and see." "And if we have to wait a little while for them, for them to finish..." You know, I've got several people in my membership who've been in that position where they've got jobs and the job has said, "Okay, we can wait six months or whatever for you to finish up, 'cause we want you." So one of the tools that I want to really encourage you to practice is any time you hear your brain say what if, I want you to answer it. Because all of the things that you're what if-ing about, when I pause you and say, "Hang on, but what if?" You've got a really good answer. What if they do deprioritize me because... well, at least I applied. At least I've got the experience. At least they know I exist. 

Lekhana: Yeah. Yeah. 

Vikki: What if other jobs don't come up? Well, I better apply for the ones that are there, and wait and see what else comes up. 

Lekhana: Mm-hmm. 

Vikki: What if I get major revisions? Well, I'll do the major revisions, and I'll look after myself through it 

Lekhana: Yep 

Vikki: What if it affects my visa? You've dealt with visa things in the past. I know it's a hassle- i know it's a big challenge and everything. Yeah. But you'll figure it out, whether that means staying, whether that means going home, whether it means going somewhere else. 

Vikki: You get to say, "You know what? It will be a hassle. I wish I don't have to think about it." But I'm capable of figuring this stuff out." 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: It's almost that kind of reassurance of, yeah, it might. In fact, going back to my eggshell analogy, one of the things my mum said, and again, this is many, many, many years ago now, and I still remember, is, "And if your belly starts hurting, you tell the teacher and I'll come and get you."

Vikki: Yeah? So it becomes, and if it does happen, I don't think ... You know, 'cause we can't just, "You'll be fine. You'll be fine. You'll be fine," doesn't actually reassure 'cause your brain's going, "Yeah, but what if it's not? What if I do get major revisions? What if I do get rejected for all these jobs 'cause I haven't got my thesis yet?"

Vikki: But we get to say, "Okay, and if that does happen, I deal with that bit, too." 

Vikki: Does that feel true to you? Could you authentically tell yourself, "Whatever the examiners say, I'll figure it out"? 

Lekhana: I think so. I mean, you know, if I have to go back and think about all of the times that I have actually done this, I have actually been able to handle myself in difficult situations. I, I think so, yeah. 

Vikki: You've got evidence. 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: You've got evidence that you can do hard things. 

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: And we've also got evidence, 'cause we've seen it through the membership, that you're getting much better at doing difficult things in a way that is healthy and kind to yourself- 

Lekhana: Yeah ... 

Vikki: rather than doing hard things by just working 47 hours a day.

Lekhana: Yeah. Yeah? 

Vikki: Yeah. You've been really working and developing the skills to be able to get stuff done while also doing your physical activity, while also seeing your friends, while also having some rest.

Lekhana: I think so, yeah. I, there, there has been evidence. I mean, at least if I... I don't have to go all the way far back, but- just since I started the membership, it's been, there has been a massive change, so I think that's something that I should really look back on and reflect and, yeah, think about, like, how I managed to do that, how I can apply that for now, my current situations, yeah.

Vikki: And it's okay to not want to have to, okay? This isn't saying that it shouldn't be, like, you shouldn't be disappointed but sometimes when we think about all the things at once and we either want to know certainly that they won't happen or certainly that they'll be fine, it's absolutely exhausting, 'cause you're asking your brain to solve so many problems. When in reality, when we can say, "You know what? I have no idea how I would solve it, but I trust that I will figure it out and I will look after myself when I do."

Lekhana: Yeah. 

Vikki: And then if we can use that to kind of calm ourselves a bit, then we get to say, "What's the one thing I need to do now?" And I'll figure the rest out later. How are you feeling? People on YouTube will see you're feeling a bit emotional. What, what are you feeling at the moment? 

Lekhana: Yeah. It's, it's always emotional. Every time I think about it, it is. But I think I've gotten better with handling that as well. So yeah, there is a bit of reassurance that I have in my mind.

Vikki: Cool. Lena, do you wanna come back on? How are you doing? How was that for you? 

Lena: Yeah. I'm glad my camera was off. I was getting really emotional. It was ... Yeah. I mean, I've seen Lekhana kind of recently. But it's been so emotional to see the journeys that everyone has been on. I've seen all the work also that, that you've put into, your thesis, so it's just beautiful to see the, the journey as well. 

Vikki: And did you take any lessons for yourself? Were there things that were useful reminders for you? I know you're at a different stage, but applying to your situation.

Lena: Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, off the bat, the blissful sleep after after turning in, I was like, I, I absolutely see what you're saying. Um, no, I think, I think broadly what really spoke to me was your anxieties and fears over the logistics of the viva and the impact it can have on your personal life.

Lena: I think that's something that I've really thought about in the last year of the PhD was the, I think the impact, the potential impact the PhD was having on sort of my personal life and being able to plan for the future, and being able to kind of move forward. So that really resonated with me about the impact it can have.

Lena: But at the same time, I found the conversation you were having about kind of being more aware about what we tell ourselves about the logistics and not necessarily just accepting, these narratives that we tell ourselves, but that there is ways we can navigate the kind of logistics that you don't control. There is some way of moving forward, even if logistics are uncertain, but I do think it takes a lot of, of work and it takes effort to do that. 

Vikki: And that's tiring, right? And this is the thing that's always really challenging with this stuff, is this kind of having to manage your emotions, having to manage your thoughts and all of those things. It's really tiring. So it's finding this balance between it's totally understandable that periods of uncertainty, these kind of transition periods are stressful, and being loving and kind to ourselves through that, whilst at the same time just making sure that we're not making them harder for ourselves by telling us things that don't have to be true.

Vikki: Okay. Perfect. Lekhana, I'm gonna get you just to turn your camera off, and I'm gonna have a chat with Lena. So thank you for that. So you are the other side of your viva, so that's very exciting. Tell me what you're proud of. Let's do that first. 

Lena: Yeah. Um, I mean, I think- the main one is kind of the standard. I think I'm proud of submitting, of the document itself. I think it was, it was quite a difficult last year. I think when I went into the PhD, I kind of assumed, you know, the first year's kinda difficult 'cause you're figuring it out. The second year is difficult 'cause you're doing your data collection. You don't know, you know, where it's gonna go, and I think that there's anxiety of, oh my goodness, if I don't get the data that I need, what am I gonna do? And then I think in my little kind of roadmap I wrote down, you know, year three and four as, like, easy at that point. Yeah. You know what you're doing. 

Vikki: Just write it up. 

Lena: Just write it up. And I think I, that it was particularly, particularly challenging because obviously you're not fresh after four years. I think you've already been worn down by the years, and so I didn't feel fresh. I felt a lot more burnt out. And then there's the anxieties. You know, I need to write it up. I need to get this over the line. And I think throughout the PhD it feels like there's always this, there's always this sentiment of like, oh, yeah, I can just fix it later. I can just fix it later. But I found in the last year I kind of got to a point where I was like, I either fix it now or it's not being changed, or that's just not going into it. Um, so I was proud of finally submitting and getting to a point where I felt comfortable that I'm submitting it in the way that it was.

Lena: That obviously there was things I wanted to change, and there's a thing, but I was proud of having worked on how I felt about submitting and, and feeling that, like, I'm submitting it now. Obviously, if I started the PhD again, I might do it differently, but this is the journey that I've been on. This is what I have, and this is what I'm gonna submit.

Vikki: Yeah. I love that. And one of the things I often say is if you would go back to the beginning and do it differently, that means you've learnt a lot since you started. Often people think that that's a sign that you've done it badly in some way. In my view, if you finish a PhD, and if you went back to the beginning you'd do it exactly the way you did it, that's a slightly weird PhD.

Lena: Yeah. 

Vikki: You should finish it going, "Oh, well, if I knew all this, then I would've just done this, this, and this, and it would've been way easier." But then you would've learned different things, right? If, even if you'd started from that point, you'd learn different things and go back and say the same thing. So that is a sign that you've just learnt an enormous amount doing your PhD.

Lena: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think that was kind of the weird things in the last year is that it got to a point where I felt like I was editing someone else's work, because obviously in the last, in th- one of the last years there's a lot less leeway to change things. I mean, like, my case studies that I've picked, you know, they were picked For good reasons, but, you know, they were picked kind of three years before, and then you, you, there's no, there wasn't room to kind of change those case studies.

Lena: So you're sort of working with what you've got, and there's a lot. I felt like the more you go into the PhD, the less there's leeway to change certain things, so you just have to work with what you've got and kind of accept, "Well, I made these decisions three years ago," being more or less informed. And then you just kind of have to work with what you've got.

Lena: So it is definitely a bit of a weird one by the end. And it felt like honestly editing someone else's, kind of someone else's work. 

Vikki: Yeah. And how was your viva in the end? Before we get onto corrections. Yeah. How was the viva? 

Lena: Yeah, it was really good. I mean, I obviously, like, like Lekhana was saying, obviously there was the fear going into it, and the way that the UK system is set up, you know, you don't get told a decision before. So there is... I know in other systems, you can kind of be told whether you've passed before, and then you go and it's more of like a ceremony or kind of a, a public presentation. Whereas obviously in the UK system, you can go in there, and it can happen that you can fail, and they'll tell you on the spot that you've failed.

Lena: So that's kind of- what we see as our worst case scenario. But I think the discussion you were having with Lekhana earlier about, like, that doesn't, that's not necessarily the worst case scenario. You can work with what you get, but it went, it went pretty well. I was surprised at the questions. I think the first question, which threw me off was "Why did you, why did you decide to do a PhD?" And I think I went into it, you know, very like, with all my, my... I printed out the whole thing, all my notes. I was, you know, ready with a list of questions I thought that they could kind of, ask me about, or kind of methodological questions, like very kind of technical points. And to sit down and that be my first question and I was a bit like, "Oh, now I have to kind of like ..." Why did I decide to do a PhD that long ago?

Vikki: That's so funny. Sorry, before you carry on. That's so funny because, I've seen that go in both directions, right? 'Cause that's how I've done vivas in the past and things. Starting out with quite open, why a PhD? Why this topic? Why did you think it was particularly interesting? Da, da, da. So all my PhD students were very prepared for those sorts of questions, 'cause that was the approach I'd taken and the people that I knew took those. And then one of my very first PhD students, her first question was something like, "On page two of your introduction, you reference the Smith et al paper. What exactly did they do?" My student was like, "You told me they wouldn't ask things like that." And I'm like, "I didn't think they would." So yes, you can never quite tell what's going to come- but you kind of roll with it. 

Lena: Yeah, absolutely. It's just kind of a bit of a weird... and answering that question, 'cause I hadn't really prepared that one really. I felt like I'd prepared every question and for that one. And so I kind of panicked a little and my answer basically was like, um, so I did my PhD on, on corruption, and my answer was that, something along the lines of, "Well, when I was, when I was five and I, uh, I watched Scooby-Doo for the first time."

Vikki: I love that.

Lena: "And I realized, I realized you could run around catching criminals with your friends all day. It really, it really changed something in me." And I just, their face, I think it was also so left field from what they were expecting. And so I think we just sort of each other-

Vikki: I love it. I would just be like, "Tick, pass. She passes. She's having a PhD." PhD and Scooby-Doo, love it. 

Lena: That's the comment I got after the viva when it was announced to the department. My internal basically said like, "Any viva that starts with a Scooby-Doo mention five minutes in, you know it's gonna be a good one." 

Vikki: I love that. Amazing. So how are you finding doing corrections?

Lena: Yeah, it's been a bit of a, it's been a bit of a mixed one. So it took a little bit for the report to kind of come in. I've had it for about a month now. And I have about one month until the deadline, to kind of graduate in the summer so I'm about halfway. I only started really working on the corrections kind of this weekend. So I've delayed it for about a month- Okay ... for different, for different reasons. Uh- 

Vikki: Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna ask you about that delayed. Have we procrastinated it, or have we intentionally decided to do it later?

Lena: Um, a mix of both. I think some of it is logistics. Because now I've started, uh, work, so I'm working kind of 9:00 to 5:00 every day, so there's less room for that. But there's definitely some procrastination in there. I think I... It was quite funny to me, 'cause I think you kind of pass the viva, you think, " I'm a new woman. Procrastination, she doesn't know me." "I, I can do the PhD fully. It's fine." And, um, I, it was really funny sitting down yesterday in my old cafe that I sat. I pulled up my laptop, and it was like, there she was. I opened it, and I was like, "Eh, I'll go check my phone. I'll go check my emails." Like, I think it's something that is such a practice that you have to do. It never really fully goes away, I think. But, so there has been a bit of procrastination on that for different reasons. I think the classic sort of worry of, I want the corrections to be, to be perfect. So I'm holding back because I'm waiting for the perfect moment, kind of thing. But if it's this afternoon, I'll be in the best mindset to do these corrections. But right now is not the best mindset. So th- that classic kind of reasons why I think we, we find it difficult to move forward with a PhD. But also an added layer of, um, I think trying to hold back because it was , a long process, but I decided not to stay in academia. Uh, so I'm working in the public sector now. And I think it's kind of unearthed a lot of big feelings about that. It feels like the corrections are the last thing holding me attached to my institution- to the, the people that I worked with for four years, to academia in general, and I feel like there's a bit of sense of once I turn these corrections in, that will kind of be it, and I will be kind of, I'll float away into another world. And there's this kind of fear and a bit of sadness, I would say.

Lena: Sadness and guilt as well about potentially moving on towards, towards something else. So I feel like dragging my feet a little bit, 'cause I'm trying to hold on a little bit longer to the academia, but also the people as well. 

Vikki: Mm. Why guilt? 

Lena: Um, guilt I think because um, when, when I was at a university sort of a year, maybe two years ago and then a year ago, two times there was a position that was opened in my institution that I was kind of suggested I think, uh, to, to apply for.

Lena: And I got on really well with the people at the university. I think there was sort of an expectation that I would take it. And they were hoping I think that I would stay. And so I, I thought long and hard about it, but I, I decided I just, I felt like I'd done enough in academia.

Lena: I felt quite burnt out at the time that I made the decision. I think if I was to make the decision now, I think, there's more likelihood that maybe I would stay, but at the time I, I felt like I've really given everything I have in this PhD. I don't feel like I have, I can't take on a new research project.

Lena: So I, I turned it down and, um, I felt, um, I felt the, the people who would kind of were rooting for me to take it I think were quite, were disappointed that I, I had made that decision. So I felt guilty for letting sort of not, uh, going in the way that I think the people wanted. And also a lot of guilt because I know academic jobs are very difficult to come by. I'm talking with, you know, PhD friends, they're very difficult to come by. So to basically twice have the door kind of very graciously opened to me, when I know it's very difficult and to turn that down, I felt like I wasn't, being grateful enough I think.

Vikki: So to be grateful you have to take up the opportunity? 

Lena: Yeah. 

Vikki: Is that how you're seeing it? 

Lena: Well, yeah, I felt like it was sort of, I think I've seen how difficult it is to get those jobs, and they come around quite rarely. And so it felt like I wasn't being, yeah, grateful enough for that to, that it was a huge chance basically and that it was a shame to not take up that chance. You should, you should, be thankful in a way- that's being kind of given to you. 

Vikki: But I'm just really inter- I know this is slightly different than the procrastination, but I think it might help a little bit. I'm really interested in this notion that you can't be grateful or thankful unless you take up the opportunity 

Lena: Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good, that's a good point. I think, I think it's because it's also tied to the, the people, I think, And their, their expectations. I think if I had been, you know, if I had potentially applied for a role in another institution and been offered that, that position,, I would've maybe declined it and I would've maybe not reflected on it as much. I think it was also because I knew the people that I would be potentially- working with, and I knew that they were, you know, quite quite interested in I think for professional reasons. They w- were interested in me joining. But I think from a personal point of view- that they thought, "Oh, you know, it'd be nice if you stuck around." And I think, so yeah, having to go against people who I really admire and really respect and really, uh, value, going against- their expectations was difficult. 

Vikki: Yeah. No, for sure. And I think that's really common, right? And we get this sort of sense of responsibility to other people. But one of the things I'd really encourage you, and everyone listening, to think about is you're not responsible for other people's emotions. You're responsible for your own behavior and deciding whether your behavior is acceptable or not, whether it's in line with your ethics and your values and all those things. But you're not responsible for their emotions, 'cause you're not in control of their emotions in any way. They might be disappointed. I'm not gonna say that I'm sure they were disappointed. But you get to decide that, "Okay, I'm sad they're disappointed. I'd rather they weren't disappointed, but I don't feel guilty about the fact that they were disappointed because I was straight with them about not taking the role. I was grateful for the opportunity. I thanked them for the opportunity," as I'm sure you did. I behaved in a way that I assume you think, at least, you can tell me, that was in line with your ethics and values, that it was perfectly acceptable that if you, at that stage in your life, didn't feel like you wanted that role, that it's okay to say you don't want that role.

Lena: Yeah. 

Vikki: Yeah? Because we start acting really weird, and this is related a little bit to the letting go thing. We start acting really weird when we worry too much about other people's emotions. Now, this isn't saying you should just do exactly what you want and not care about others. We still wanna act in line with our ethics and values.

Vikki: But when we start feeling guilty about the fact we didn't take a role, we are then, for example, often less likely to stay in touch, Less likely to maintain other connections because we feel like we've upset them, and that's all a bit awkward so we stay over here kind of thing. So I'd really encourage you, we can have obviously sadness, mourning for the transition out of being a PhD student and everything. I'd really encourage you to think about what would I need to think and feel in order for me not to be losing connection necessarily, moving to a different phase of my life, yes. But what could I think, feel, do in order to retain some connection with these people that I like? What would that look like? What would that look like as an alumni rather than as a student or a colleague? 

Lena: Yeah. I think I've tried in different ways. It's geographically in a different location than I am now. So I try to come back, to see those people about once a month, although it's been quite busy. But I try to kind of maintain kind of going, going down on a personal level, or sort of messaging every so often to see how, everyone is, everyone is doing. Professionally , I've tried to, if there's conferences maybe that are being organized, sort of keeping in touch that way. And then I'm trying to work out how to keep in touch with academia in general.

Lena: So my current position doesn't, necessarily require any research. Uh, which is one of the reasons I think I went, I went into it. I felt like I wanted to do something that was a bit more practical and less kind of research-focused. But down the line, I'd like to find ways of maybe continuing to do research a little bit in sort of a different way.

Lena: So not as kind of intensely, but sort of keeping it on the side. And I would like to eventually sort of publish the, the PhD as well. So there is that sort of, there's gonna be that need for connection anyway if I wanna go down that route. I'll m- probably will have to talk to my supervisors about it again, et cetera.

Lena: One thing I wanted to talk to you about, is I feel like participating in academia seems very binary. You're either a student or you're teaching, or you're not and you're outside of it. And I, I don't see a lot of instances of participating in academia in less of a sort of such a binary way., And yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on ways of participating in academia- that aren't sort of, "I'm a student, I'm on faculty." But there must be other ways to kind of contribute to that from more of an external point of view. 

Vikki: Yeah. No, for sure. And it is, it's challenging, not helped by the fact that I'm in this situation at the moment. So anyone out there listening who wants to give me an honorary position, get in touch. I don't have access to journals at the moment. Drives me wild, 'cause I don't have an official university affiliation anymore. So any time I want to read, 'cause I try and stay evidence-based, not so much in my discipline, but more in the stuff I'm doing now, I have to message... You'll see them pop up sometimes on Community, "Anyone download this for me?" Or I contact like old colleagues or whatever, to find stuff for me. So there is that barrier, for sure. Um, writing up PhDs post a PhD but when you're not in academia, is more common. You do have to decide essentially that you're doing it as a hobby, that you're essentially doing it because you want it to exist, because you're enjoying being part of it. Because it is, it's something that unless you're gonna get an academic role in order to have time to do it, it's something that's always gonna be on the side of that. Your old institution might be able to give you an honorary position to give you access. An honorsry, honorary research assistant or something like that during the process if you're still collaborating with your supervisors about it. Otherwise, it'll be your supervisor's responsibility to make sure that you've got access to the references and things that you need. There are more and more kind of slightly crossover conferences. Depends a little bit on the field. But because, certainly in the UK, universities are being encouraged to do more impact work, there's more crossover events between academia and the parts of the world that use that academia.

Vikki: So I don't know, and I st- don't go into now, but thinking about are there any overlaps with what I'm doing in my role and my old interests, and are there ways that that could yield any interesting things. So for example, to use other people's examples, we have people who do a lot of research about sustainability and things like that, but then they will go to more industry-focused conferences where it's thinking about sustainability in specific contexts, and those sorts of things.

Vikki: So there are those sorts of things. It's not necessarily a straightforward route, and it is a route that, as I say, will usually be kind of pro bono, as a hobby work more than anything else. 'Cause we all know you don't make money out of university academic books.

Vikki: The other is thinking very seriously about what sort of book you would wanna write. I'm assuming from your topic you're talking book rather than papers. I could be wrong. But if you were talking book, the other option is whether, particularly your topic's quite an interesting topic, whether it's something that could be a, like, a more general release type book that you would write for publication.

Lena: Yeah. Yeah. No, no, absolutely. I think those are, yeah, are really good, good points. I have come across a few conferences that are coming up that I've been meaning to kind of talk to my line manager at work and kind of thinking, Do we have any involvement in that, and is there a way that I can sort of participate, participate- Mm ... in, in that. '

Vikki: Cause I do wonder whether getting creative about some of these thoughts might help a little bit with the this-is-the-end-of-my-PhD procrastination. Because if we can reframe it as, yeah, this is the next major hurdle that I wanna get over, but it doesn't have to be the end of my connection to the university, the end of my connection to the people, the end of my connection to my research, then it starts becoming, yeah, it's the end of a phase, but I'm coming into a new phase. And that might help with some of that sadness. 

Lena: Yeah. 

Vikki: I think the bit that will become clear over time, and I would encourage you to allow yourself to let it become clear, is which bits do you miss? So I left academia three and a half years ago now, and I love going back to campus, love seeing the people, love swanning around campus 'cause I love our university, I love the people, I love the collegiate feel. I love reading some elements of academic research and thinking about how I can use them in my practice. I do not miss doing research on any level, and if anybody contacts me to ask me if I want to do a research project with them, the answer's no. Thank you for asking. Love you lots. No, don't want to. , So at the moment you're probably feeling a bit nostalgic about the whole thing, but as you get a little further away from it, I'd encourage you to try and really tease apart Which actual elements?

Vikki: Is it I, I miss those specific people? In which case, how can I still have them in my life? Do I miss that team sense? In which case, how can I generate that more in my current role? Do I miss the actual reading of research, the actual doing of what bits do I miss? 'Cause it might not be all of it.

Lena: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. I think that's a really good point. I think it's been, it's been sort of, um, just such a jarring process switching between academia to kind of a full-time- job. Um, e- just practically, I mean, I've... Now I have a nine-to-five. I have to count my annual holiday days, which I was like- 

Vikki: Wow. Yeah. 

Lena: You know, I'd never had to do that- Yeah ... that before, obviously, a- as a PhD. Um, or even just having a line manager, having someone that you report to. Yeah. I think one of the joys and also issues, you know, or difficulties with a PhD is that you're your own boss, really.

Lena: So there's, you don't... You explain to your supervisors what you're doing, but on a day-to-day, you don't have to kind of give- reports on what you're doing to, to someone. And I think what's been difficult as well, just the, the, the change in community as well. I mean, I spent probably about six to nine months co-working on, in the membership every day with the same people, sorry. And, um, to then not have that, um, anymore is a huge, huge shift. We, you know, we ha- we had a, a catch-up call yesterday, and we were chatting for, like, three hours, trying to kind of-

Vikki: Oh, that's nice ...

Lena: there's so much to say. So it's seeing that world kind of go by as well. I mean, I know the membership is still, still, still going. Um, I was this close to continuing, then I thought, "Well, I could have stayed for the corrections," but I w- I thought, "Well, it's harder to join the sessions now," but it's sort of really lovely to see new people join, and I feel like, I'm like, yeah, watching from outside the- 

Vikki: I mean, if you wanna sneak in for a correction technically we've closed, but I'd let you back in. But thinking, but seriously with that, though, is that, it's, that is, again, a gorgeous phase to be in. I love that the co-working meant so much to you, and you've met these amazing people and everything. I love that you all had a catch-up. That's amazing.

Vikki: But that tells you something about what's important to you and what sorts of communities you find useful and fun. And it's also given you some skills, 'cause you were part of creating that, right? You didn't just show up to these sessions. You organized some of them and things as well. You were part of creating that welcoming environment, you guys are all over the world. You're all doing different topics. You know, it didn't come together by chance. It came together because you and a few others created it, and so you've got those skills. And so I think for you and for anybody listening who has the sort of nostalgia over what was, really thinking, "Okay, that tells me something about what's important to me."

Vikki: It doesn't have to be that, although, like I say, very welcome back for your corrections if you want to. But it doesn't have to be that, but I am capable ... I'm capable of keeping those relationships going outside the context of the membership. I'm capable of creating these sorts of connections, maybe not in the same way, maybe not with the online working, but maybe.

Vikki: But I'm capable of creating these, what would that look like in my current employer's context? How do I use the skills that I got from building that community to feel more part of something where I'm working? It's sort of the things we miss tell us what things we want in the future. 

Lena: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's really interesting from a sort of a personal point of view, but I think from an academic point of view, I think that's really, really interesting. 'Cause I think, academically, I, I felt like I, I spent a lot of time kind of identifying what wasn't working for me in academia, and I think there's a broader conversation about how, how academia is and how it treats different, different people, and the different challenges that different people can have in academia.

Lena: But maybe seeing what I miss, yeah, like you said, highlights, I think, the good bits of academia and the opportunities that you get, that you get from it. And obviously, I think it's a lot easier once you kind of move on to something else to look back and think, "Ooh, but I really liked that." Obviously, when you're in it, you know. I mean, I was so excited to go, so excited to finish and kind of move on. But yeah, now I look at it maybe with a little bit of a kinder, kinder eye.

Vikki: And we get to do both. That's the joy, right? We get to think ... 'Cause I'm having to do this. Okay, I don't know whether ... Certainly lots of people on the podcast won't know. I don't know how much you know. But when I left academia to start this, not only did I leave academia, I left the city that I was living in to move back to where I grew up. Until about a year before that, I had been single for years and years and years and years and years, and living a very engaged and vibrant out- you know, pre-2020 That was complicated. But pre-2020, very vibrant, very busy, very lots of things going on, lots of different hobbies, lots of different networks life. And I moved to a village with my wonderful husband, so I was away from work, I was away from my everything. And it has been, and it's still, you know, three and a half years later, it's still a transition.

Vikki: Um, but you get to do two things. You get to recogn- one we've talked about already. You get to recognize what bits you miss and how can you recreate them in your next bit of life. And then the second thing is how can you value the things you had then that are now not compatible with what you have now, but you value the fact you had them?

Vikki: Okay? Because I can tell you, when I was then, if I, if you were telling me that I would have a gorgeous, wonderful husband, I would be the happiest happy person in happy world. You know? Many of my shenanigans were trying to find that person. Um, many of my comedy stories come from that. Um, and so a lot of what was fun and I miss in inverted commas from then is not compatible with my current life.

Vikki: I don't have comedy dating stories anymore. But I can look back and love that for what it was, and love what I have now. But I can also figure out what are the bits. I want comedy stories of silly things I've done, so I'm trying to reinsert that back into my life, if you see what I mean. And so it's sort of thinking which bits can I and do I want to replicate, and which bits do I want to just really revel in the joyous memory that I had that phase of my life, rather than telling myself I should have all of that now.

Lena: Yeah. Yeah. 

Vikki: Because we definitely had conversations about how much you wanted your thesis done, you wanted a salary, you wanted to be stable. We definitely had that conversation.

Lena: I mean, I love it. I mean, it's, it's great. That, that aspect I really, I, I really value. And just the, the kind of, the freedom that comes with, comes with being a bit more, more independent on, on that front, I think. Yeah, I do, I do really value- I mean, I, I stick with the decision. I think it was the right decision to try something else at this stage in, in my life. When I decided to do a PhD, a lot of it was because I, I felt like academia would be something that I would want to do at the end of my career, but I just didn't see myself doing a PhD later in life.

Lena: Which now I have different opinions on. I think I see more value in that than I did when I was, I mean, I was 23 when I started the PhD, so it felt like, "Oh, I don't wanna be... I, I'll do it later." But I, I see the value now. Also, I have a kinder eye, I think, and I think there's, there is so much value about doing a PhD later in life, in my opinion. - But Yeah, it's definitely been a, a, a process. Um, but I, I stick. I think it was the right, the right decision. 

Vikki: You make it the right decision. That's what you get to do. I wouldn't even say I think it was the right... It was, because it was the decision you took. So it was the right decision. You get to make it the right decision now. And if in however many years you're like, "You know what? I'm ready to make a different decision now, to go back into academia or to do something completely different," great, we can still make it. It doesn't become an irreversible decision. But for now, for the amount of time you've decided you'll stay in your current role, I think it's really useful to tell yourself it was just the right decision, and I'm gonna make it the best decision ever.

Lena: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Um, yeah. Although I'm sad we didn't get the funny story, funny, funny comedy stories as a standalone session in the coaching. I think you really, you're sitting on something. 

Vikki: I'm hiding all the dating stories. I'll write a book one day. On that, Lekhana, come back. Save me. My dating years were the Facebook generation, And I was terrible for sharing way too much in my status updates. 

Lena: We've all been there. We've all been there.

Vikki: And so I live it through my Facebook memories. You know, when you log on, it's like- ... 15 years ago today. Vikki never expected blah, blah, blah, blah. So I just entertain myself like that these days. So how was that for you, 

Lekhana: Lekha? Oh, really nice. I think it, it made... gave me a few things to think about as well, like when, uh, when Lena was talking about all of her experiences so far. And it's quite interesting to see, like, how you made this decision and you're also, like, trying to still hold onto this academic life. It's... yeah, I just started thinking about, like, okay, this is... I, I just built this whole PhD around, like, wanting to get into academia because that's not something that I had a background to do before the PhD. So yeah, it, it was quite interesting. Not just now, but, like, any coaching sessions that I've been a part of before, it's always, like, interesting to look at, okay, there, there is something that I can so relate to with everything that everybody speaks about. So it's quite nice. Yeah. 

Vikki: Definitely. And we've ended up... I told you guys we'd be done in way less time than we have been. This is the problem when I coach people that I know and have cared about for a long time. But it has been absolutely gorgeous to see you both. It's gorgeous to hear that you guys stay in touch and everything. And, thank you everyone for listening. And I will see you next week.